Ellen Pompeo and Taraji P. Henson on "Gray's Anatomy", "Empire" – Variety

Ellen Pompeo and Taraji P. Henson sat down to discuss VarietyActors on Actors. For more, click here.

Taraji P. Henson and Ellen Pompeo are two of the most powerful women on television, at the center of great radio successes. Henson's Cookie Lyon on Cookie® proved to be a fan favorite, while Meredith Gray, of Pompeo, left viewers obsessed with ABC's "Gray's Anatomy" for a decade and a half, thus making the the longest medical drama in the history of the series. The two stars have also found their voice by talking about the inclusion and inequalities in Hollywood.

TARAJI P. HENSON: Ellen, we live with your character for 15 years now. How was the character written on the page?

ELLEN POMPEO: When I read the script, what came out was that it was the main character. I had been in a bunch of movies, but just the girlfriend or the woman. And then – listen, the way she has evolved is that I'm 15 years older. What about you when you read the Empire Pilot?

TPH: I thought, "The NAACP, they will pick me up for this one." She calls a son, who is gay, the F-bomb, and beats a son with a broom. It's something that has never been shown on national television – certainly not by a black woman. When you are a person of color, you must pay attention to the roles you choose. You want to raise the people. Once I passed the fear, I could really see her. I did not want black people to identify with her. I wanted every mother in the world to understand the sacrifices that only mothers can do.

EP: I think that Caucasian actresses do not understand the nuanced struggles you have as a black woman, and the roles you choose – what you avoid, what you want to be sure of succeeding. It's a completely different layer of difficulty that I certainly did not understand at the beginning of my show. I knew we were doing special things by showing people of color as doctors, which had not been done on TV for a long time. But when we are young actresses, you try to have the slightest role. You do not have the time to have empathy. I had an extraordinary education, not always in the most pleasant way. I had to observe and live a lot of uncomfortable moments, which is good because I am happy to have uncomfortable moments as long as I learned.

TPH: It means you are growing. Growth is uncomfortable. When I booked "Empire", I had a momentum for which I was waiting for my entire career. I have seized every opportunity. If I received 5 or 10 million of a film, I would not work as much. I work because I have bills to pay. I have dreams. I have to bring him in.

EP: For me, the performance that stands out is "Hustle & Flow". Your quote should have skyrocketed after that.

TPH: He does not have it. I think the industry knew that I had talent. But it's a question of money. Are you bankable? I had to continually prove it. I have tried to prove and improve. I asked half a million. I was not paid until I shot my first movie Tyler Perry. He was the first person who paid me $ 500,000. I have never been in a position where I could not take a job; by the grace of God they have all been very good people. But it was never a situation where I thought, "I'm not going to do that." Now, I'm finally here.

EP: It is impossible to have this conversation without talking about race. It is an important element of pay equity.

TPH: This will not change until the privileges are reached. Otherwise, we play a recovery. My only story that I would like to change is my money. It's almost as if they wanted this incredible performance for a discount price. Black films – we do not have big budgets. I have to wait for Scorsese or someone with a franchise film to call.

EP: Do you hear that? She wants a franchise movie. Who calls?

TPH: We are entering our sixth season. How did you do 15? Was there a time when you were like, "Child, I want to get off this bus"?

EP: There were many moments. It's funny: I never wanted to get off the bus in the year that I could get off. The first 10 years, we had serious problems of culture, very bad behavior, a really toxic work environment. But once I started having children, it did not concern me anymore. I have to support my family.

TPH: I know it.

EP: At 40, where am I going to have that kind of money? I need to take care of my children. But after season 10, we had big shifts in front of the camera, behind the camera. My goal has become to be able to live an experience of which I could be happy and proud, because we have been very disturbed for 10 years. My mission has become, it can not be fantastic for the public and a disaster behind the scenes. Shonda Rhimes and I decided to rewrite the end of this story. That's what kept me. Patrick Dempsey left the series in season 11, and the studio and network thought the series could not continue without the male role. I therefore had the mission to prove that it was possible. I was on a dual mission.

TPH: Patrick and you did you pay the same thing at the beginning?

EP: He was paid almost double what I was at first. He had a quote on television. I had never done TV.

TPH: I know this story. Is there wine in this cup?

EP: "He made 13 drivers." Well, none of them is gone. I did not even know we were renegotiating Season 3. No one was offering it.

TPH: This story is like mine. But when all tweets were about Cookie, I said, "It's time to renegotiate. Can everyone sit at the table, please? I had been in the game long enough to know the numbers game and I knew that Cookie had become iconic. You need her. So I need my money.

EP: My husband says, "Closed mouths are not fed." But if you have to walk, do not be a victim. If you do not get what you want, put on your big girl panties …

TPH: And bounce.

EP: You can know your value, but if they do not know it, you can not cry.

TPH: I had already had to leave a series and it was the most money I have ever seen in my life, and I was so miserable. It was stealing my joy. I just remember praying to God, "God, I'm not creatively happy." And the next day I called the producer. He had it. And I left without even knowing where I was going. I ended up doing a play in Pasadena. I did not care who came to the theater, directors or casting directors. It was about Taraji becoming fond of this craft again. Fox had to court me. I would not read the script. I had finished with the television.

EP: It's a grind.

TPH: It's really not for me. I had to say, "I want my money because I know what I bring to the table and I know what follows." I know that if there is money, I should be paid.

EP: I now have three children. And we transformed the culture. I touched brands that made me feel fulfilled in a different way. Shonda Rhimes has been amazing. She lets us be mothers. I do not have to travel. I do not have to go anywhere.

TPH: I do not know if I could do 15 Cookie seasons.

EP: Are you involved in your scenario at all?

TPH: Absolutely. Nobody knows Cookie better than me.

EP: I have not been challenged creatively at all. From time to time, we make an incredible scenario. But in the last five years, I've had other milestones that we were trying to get behind the camera.

TPH: For me, one of our proudest moments was gay marriage. Because we did not know how the black community would accept Jamal, the gay son [played by Jussie Smollett, who since this conversation has not been asked back to the sixth and final season of the show]because it's so taboo. There are always homophobes on Twitter, but it is small voices compared to the resounding love voices he receives, the character. I'm just proud to be part of this show that is not afraid to get people talking. This is the only way to get change.

EP: We have the most incredible community of actresses right now. Everyone is just highlighting all these old stereotypes and throwing them out the window.

TPH: I do not want anyone who looks like me, or a 40 year old woman, feels compelled to stop being sexy on the screen. I am not ready to collect a check. I want to open movies. I will be 49 this year.

EP: Me too.

TPH: And we always have an audience.

EP: We always have an audience.

TPH: We are always bankable, and we are always sexy as hell.