Prison Lula: "Brazil is ruled by a gang of madmen"

Luiz Inacio Lula de Silva, former president of Brazil, imprisoned in Curitiba since April 2018, granted for the first time an interview in the prison where he is currently serving a sentence reduced to 8 years and 10 months. He did it with the Spanish newspaper The country and with the newspaper Folha de São Paulo. The leader of the Workers' Party has been found guilty of money laundering and corruption in a three-storey real estate operation on Guarujá beach (São Paulo), reformed by a construction company that has signed contracts with Petrobras.

"To be alive and do nothing crazy is the way I found to help this country reconnect with democracy," said Lula, who said he would "unmask Judge Sergio Moro" and considered the current government led by Jair Bolsaro "a group of fools". Below, we reproduce the dialogue of the former president with the Spanish and Brazilian colleagues:

-The day of his imprisonment, April 8, 2018, was historic. What happened to him when he was arrested and transferred to jail?

Throughout the judicial process, I have always been certain that there was a central purpose: to join me. This was evident in all the testimonies; remember what the press said: they arrested so-and-so, they will arrive in Lula; They stopped Mengano, they will arrive at Lula. I knew it already because the press was showing it, people were telling it, lawyers are talking to other lawyers. It became clear that the goal was to join me. Many people thought that I had to leave Brazil, run away. But I decided that it was my place. I am obsessed with the unmasking of Sérgio Moro [el juez de primera instancia que lo condenó y ahora es ministro de Justicia del presidente Jair Bolsonaro] and his friends, and unmasking those who sentenced me. I will be imprisoned for 100 years, but I will not change my dignity for my freedom. I want to prove the joke shown here and at the US Department of Justice with testimonials from prosecutors recorded on video. I have an obsession, but I do not feel hate, I do not want because at my age, when you feel hatred, you die before. And since I want to live 120 years, I will work hard to prove my innocence.

– He can never get out of here. Still, do you think you've made the right decision?

– I'll take it again.

– Have you ever thought you could be here forever?

– Nothing happens. I sleep every day with a clear conscience. I am sure that [el fiscal de Lava Jato] Deltan Dallagnol does not do it and neither does Moro. Neither the judges of the Court of the 4th region [de segunda instancia que confirmaron la condenación de Moro] They did not even read the sentence. Who, 73 years old, who built the life I built in this country, who has regained the pride and self-esteem of the Brazilian people like me, will not give the expected results. Those born in [el Estado de] Pernambuco [en el Nordeste, una de las regiones más pobres de Brasil] and they did not die of hunger until they were five years old, and they did not bow down to anything. Do you think I would not want to be at home? But I do not care, because what I want, it 's getting out of here head up when entering. Innocent And I can only do it if I value it and fight to get it.

– Do you think you can get absolution in the case of Guarujá apartment?

– Incredibly, yes. There will be a day when people who judge me will be concerned about the real tests, not the news headlines, the magazine covers and the fake news. I just want, for the sake of God, to be judged on the basis of evidence. I am on [de mi inocencia]Moro is too. I am here to ask for justice, to prove my innocence. But I am much more concerned about what is happening with the Brazilian people.

– During this year, he went through two very sad moments: the death of his brother Vavá [en enero] and the death of his grandson Arthur [en marzo]. What's left in your life after living this?

– These two moments were the worst. This could include the loss of a partner, [el exdiputado] Sigmaringa Seixas [que se murió a final de 2018]. The death of my brother Vavá and that of my grandson were, in fact, no, no, no … [para y llora]. Sometimes I think how easy it would have been if the dead had been me. Because I lived 73 years, I could die and let live my grandson. But no. It's not just those moments that make you sad. I've always tried to be a happy man and I work hard so that hatred does not triumph over this deep resentment. When I see those who sentenced me on television, knowing how I know that they are liars, knowing that they have forged a story, I have many moments of sadness. What keeps me alive, is the commitment to this country, to this people. I am obsessed with what is happening now, the obsession with destroying national sovereignty, destroying jobs, raising a billion dollars for what to do. [el ministro Paulo Guedes dijo que la reforma de las pensiones iba a generar un ahorro de un billón de reales]? At the expense of retirees?

– How is your routine in prison?

– I spend all my time alone. Leo, I see what they send me with a pen drive. I see movies, many series, many speeches, many courses. I did a course [de clases grabadas en YouTube] about the Canudos war [conflicto de un grupo religioso contra el Ejército en el Estado de Bahía en el siglo XIX] it tells the lies that Euclides da Cunha has told. I receive clbades every week. I will leave the doctor here.

Lula da Silva does not have money to pay the deposit and will arrange a collection

– Do you wash your own clothes? Has the prison changed its routine?

– I've always wanted to live alone. Throw clothes anywhere, do not give accounts to anyone. But when I became widowed for the first time, in 1971, my mother asked to live with me [Lula ha sido dos veces viudo; su segunda mujer, Marisa Leticia, murió en 2017]. Now I do not wash my clothes. I send my people to wash it. But I love loneliness, I can learn and deepen my spirituality. I want to get out of here better than I came in, with less anger towards people.

Lula follows the information on TV that he has in the room of 15 meters where he is located. Receive visits every week. Family, friends, politicians, their lawyers. A few days ago, it was the Italian sociologist Domenico Demasi. He receives daily an injection of encouragement from a group of "Lulistas", fans who meet every day since the former president was jailed for shouting "Hello President" , "good afternoon …", "good night" three times a day day, around the federal police. They scream so that Lula does not feel alone.

– Listen to these cries? What do they mean to you?

– I listen to them every day. Honestly, I do not know how to thank those people. Some come from my first day in prison. When I get out of here, I want to go out and meet them. The first cup I want to take with them. And some toast

– His party lost the elections last year and the far right came to power with the vote of many voters from the Workers Party (PT). How do you evaluate this change to the right of an electorate who was so grateful to his administration?

– Many jurists were certain that my application could not be prevented and that even if I was sentenced, I could introduce myself. I was also safe and felt tremendous pride in winning the elections from inside the prison. It's important to remember that I raised 16 points in the polls here, unable to speak. We had atypical elections in Brazil. Let's be honest. The role of false news in the campaign, the amount of lies, the robotization of the campaign on the Internet, was a crazy thing. And then the lack of sensitivity of the left sectors not to adhere. Such was the nonsense that Marina Silva, who was almost president in 2014, won 1% of the vote. I had never seen the city with so much hate on the streets. I am, the whole world is like that. Politics is demonized and we will need a lot of time to deal with it seriously. I did not expect [el presidente] Bolsonaro was going to solve Brazil's problem in four months. And then, with his family, with his madness. His enemy capital, apart from the PT, is the Vice President [Hamilton Mourão]. I mean, it's crazy. The country is subordinated to ungovernability. Until now, he does not know what to do, and who dictates the rules is [el ministro de Economía Paulo] Guedes

– What self-criticism do you do after all this time? PT errors, how will the PT go without you?

– Of course, we recognize that we have lost the election. Now, it is worth remembering the strength of the PT. Because, just me personally, there have already been over 80 magazine covers against me. When they stopped me, they did 80 hours of [programa informativo] Jornal national against me. And they did not manage to destroy me. This means that the PT has a very great strength. The PT was not destroyed, he lost an election. He showed that it is the only party that exists in this country as a political party. The PT must have made mistakes in our governments …

– And corruption?

– Ayrton Senna [expiloto de Fórmula 1] He made a mistake and he died. There may have been some corruption, but this is proven by evidence. If there has been corruption, this is the subject of investigation, accused, trial and conviction. We created mechanisms to investigate corruption, it was not an adversary. The Brazilian elite should do its self-criticism. How did they win so much in the days of Lula, when the poor lived so well? Let's be self-critical about what happened in 2018. It may be that this country is not governed by a gang of lunatics.

Lula da Silva dismissed his grandson and stated that he was a victim of intimidation

– Do you follow the movements of General Hamilton Mourão, current vice-president?

– I can not say anything because I do not know him either. I appreciate, for example, the gesture that he made when my grandson pbaded away. Unlike the son of Bolsonaro, who published a lot of nonsense on Twitter, Mourão said it was a humanitarian problem that could go to my grandson's funeral. I want you to go out here and portray this: that they have not spoken to a broken citizen, but to a citizen who has all the faults that a human being may have, but that there is something he does not give up. I learned it with Dona Lindu [su madre], who was born illiterate and died illiterate: dignity and character are not sold in supermarkets and are not learned at the university. They are from birth. And I have a lot, and I do not abandon them. They are my inheritance.

– Ukraine has chosen a comedian for the presidency, the right has progressed strongly in many parts of the planet and elections will be held this weekend in Spain. I would like to know how you see these elections, with the growth of the right, despite the fact that the progressives of the PSOE lead the polls.

– I think that in Spain, the PSOE and Podemos will win the elections. The advance of the right in the world is the demoralization of politics. I can not think that it is wrong for a comedian to have won the elections in Ukraine. What did they say when a metallurgist won the elections [en Brasil]? They underestimated him: he was illiterate, that he could not speak, that I did not know what … Everyone can become a great politician.

– How do you see Venezuela?

Obviously, I do not agree with Venezuela's economic policy, I think it's a mistake. But I am even less in agreement with Brazil, recognizing that [Juan] Guaidó Sincerely, what a little shame. They brought Brazil to the lowest level of foreign policy I have ever seen in my life. And after this embarrbadment to say that they were going to send a truck of food and they sent two empty vans … Let everyone take care of his business and let the people of Venezuela democratically choose their leaders. If they want to go out on the streets to overthrow the government, let them go out, but it's the people, not Trump, who will overthrow the Venezuelan government.

– Would you be running for presidential elections at your age? Do not you think that you will never be a candidate again?

– I believe in many things. I see that scientists say that the man who will live in 120 years is already born. Why can not I be? I think the Catholic Church has taught that 75-year-olds would be better off retiring to make room for young people. I think a lot of good people will emerge in this country and I will just support anyone who, from now on, will run in the presidential elections. But I see that in the United States many people are 78 and 79 years old.

– His former minister Antonio Palocci became an informant. He even said that there was an account abroad, on behalf of contractor Joesley Batista, where money had been deposited for the PT. Why do you think your minister would lie?

– I had a deep respect for Palocci. It was a man who, had he not gone crazy, could have grown up in Brazilian politics. I started losing self-confidence with this owner's story during my first term. I believe that the human being has a limit to bear, from the psychological point of view, the pain that he feels. I'm sorry Palocci. Because a man of his political quality had no right to throw his life into the sea, as he did. He did not deserve to do what he did.

They reduce Lula Da Silva's sentence and could leave prison in September

– What's worrying you the most when you're locked up here? Family, friends, to know they have trouble finding a job?

– Everyone is wrong. My badets are frozen. Look like it's absurd: I had to pay a fine of 32 million reais (7 million euros)

, pay I do not know what. The Superior Court of Justice reduced it to 2 million [450.000 euros]. Why this difference? What logic should even impose a fine of 2 million euros? I hope that the goods will be thawed at least so that my children can survive with dignity. It worries me I'm worried about my son, who always comes to see me. But what concerns me the most is the situation in Brazil. I can not imagine the dreams I made for this country when we discovered oil. I have pride and I dreamed well because I was a very respected president. Here in Latin America, Brazil was the reference. I dreamed of creating a bloc in Latin America so that we have the strength to negotiate with the European Union, with the United States, with China. Individually, we are weak. I was the only president to have attended all G-8 meetings. Everything that came down. Now the mayor of New York does not want to hold a dinner for the President of Brazil. When did we arrive? What a shame!

– If you ever leave here …

– I'm going out. And I hope you are here.

– And what will he do first?

– I would like to be able to organize a debate at the university one day with Moro and Dallagnol. They with thousands of pages telling lies and me with my truth. With a good face, calm, beautiful as I am today. But, really, I want to have a BBQ, a bacon very well done and have a drink. But I will do it. To be patient

CDL / HB