Elisa Carrió with Abadi: "Life has been touched by me" – 26/04/2019

Thank you for receiving us. It is an interview that arouses interest and joy.

On the contrary. I've read his reports, I guess it's because I was psychobadyzed and I still read many books on philosophy and psychobadysis.

Do you have a psychobadytic experience?

Yes, and it saved my life. I got married at 16, I had my first child and at 18, I separated. At the end of this year, I fell head over heels in love with a guy from the faculty and, at the same time, he and all my friends died in an accident … I left. As many friends and relatives died in my childhood, I started to faint. Then they started treating me as epileptic, because I had an epileptic aunt and one day they took me to the Italian hospital in a coma.

In the coma?

"Yes, then I started with psychiatric treatment. What I had was a regular of death, then I went to this state of anxiety. Until I kill them: I accepted death and that day, I saw the sun. I left the session and I started to see the trees, the silhouette of my son (Enrique), I saw the Plaza Francia. At that time, I was already a lawyer because I met at 21 years old.

Editor's Note: The report of Dr. José Eduardo Abadi with Elisa Carrió was closed on April 9, which is why there is no reference to the MP's explosion on the death of José Manuel de la Sota.

"We can start a duel when we admit that the loss took place. How important is what you say, because the most difficult thing when we lose a loved one is acceptance, which has to do with the order of truth.

─ Acceptance is the order of life. It would seem that in that state of convulsion in which he entered, I was with them. It's been so long since I do not remember much, I just know that I collapsed. I do not want to be a victim because I am a privileged person and I know that life is learning. The interesting thing about this story is that, between psychobadysis and religion, I had both experiences. I was agnostic when all this happened, so I had a very strong conversion. I have treated and elaborated the deaths, which were more than twenty …

M More than twenty dead in this period?

Yes, in my childhood. My companion next door died, my aunt died at home, another friend died at 12 years old. In addition, most died in the river Paraná, in the boats. And then there was the accident that I talked about, in which six friends and my boyfriend died. My grandparents are also dead. It was very heavy losses and I was separated at that time and I had a son. Life mashed or crushed my life. When my religious conversion occurs, I stop having the anxiety that I felt in the morning. Because I had everything treated, but I could not get up. After the conversion, I was able to get up without anxiety because the instinct of not wanting to live from Thanatos continued to experience it despite the treatment of deaths.

"I have a contempt for power, for me it does not exist: it's a fiction, what exists is one."

I think what you are saying is very interesting because you cut a traumatic avalanche. In front of the overwhelming, there are two good alternatives for those who lose their loved ones: a melancholy accompanies the other to the grave or one saves the memory of the other, takes it to inside and confers him human immortality.

It's just that people do not die as long as you remember.

One of the things that interested me most as a psychobadyst is what happened to the human being's ability to immortalize what he likes. I was wondering if there was a chance to do it and the truth is yes. There is a way to remember, which has nothing to do with melancholy.

The human interior is an infinite universe. Regardless of your individuality, there is one that unites us and has nothing to do with your own pain, but there is a dimension of time. I believe that there is an eternity and a time without time. Or, as Borges says, "time is a fiction". I have deleted the time and, since I can not sleep, I do not know what time I get up or what time I go to bed. If time is a fiction, there is another dimension and Astronomy shows it to you: everything happens at the same time. As the mystery is so great, it is possible to communicate energies, feelings, to live for others. And that, I tell you with my 62 years.

As it is interesting

"I believe that life is a system of tests that weakens or strengthens you, depending on the ability of your life instinct to overcome it. I believe in the wisdom of pain. I believe in multiple types of knowledge, I'm not a scientist and I've been … I've been a positivist too. I believe that scientific knowledge is a transmissible knowledge. Practical knowledge and knowledge of the order of life come from pain and suffering. That is why it is impossible to separate suffering from joy and I do not spit it out.

On one side, it is the many confusing: all in the same scenario, in the common. And as in this huge party that spreads, they can not be forgetful, it's about life, death and suffering.

OObvio! I've organized my wake and it will be without going through Congress. I've got up to the menu: mushroom rice.

"Really?

Asset! I do not want to go to Congress, I do not want hypocrites speech or recognition (laughs). For me, dying is a divine dream because I think you no longer have to follow a diet, you do not have to pay for electricity, you do not have cellulite … C & # Is a wonderful thing. I imagine that there are bars and that I meet well-known souls (Laughs).

With all your luggage that you have built over the years, how did you get into the world of politics, which is so different?

For the same reason that you try to explain what is the meaning, for example, of life after the death of a loved one. I have two things: somebody hit me and I got on a train, that would be the best practical explanation; or: I was driving a locomotive and I did not know where I was going. I did not like politics and until my 37-year-old had nothing to do or went to committee.

─Is your political life beginning at this age?

─ Clear. What happens is that I am part of a family in power who is a close friend of all politicians. That's why I know Frondizi, I'm on the lap of Arturo Illia, I know Alfonsin since I was a girl because he was an intimate friend of my father. I know the whole history of Argentina; In addition, my mother was a professor of philosophy and literature. At home or at my grandparents' house in Carlos Paz, Don Arturo's birthday was celebrated with my grandfather and there was Illia's wife and they spoke to me about it. For all this, I have a contempt for power: for me the power has never existed because it is a fiction, what exists is one. It's symbolic, that's why I've never bought anything. I saw that in this world people were so common and some so mediocre! In the 1980s, Luis León called me, my father's friend and, in turn, political foe, to see if he wanted to become a representative of the constitution. At that time, I was a full professor. I was 26 years old: I was the youngest holder of the country and I got the title by an outstanding title, although I have never considered as a merit.

And what did you do?

"I went to talk to my father, Rolando, who had bone cancer. Dad was the big love of my life because he was the only person to ever get bored. I was bored all my life because I finished math problems in one minute and books in half an hour, although I did not know how I was doing that. Since I was bored, I was reading until dawn, I was making clothes, I was going everywhere. And my father was like me: he needed the party, the breakfast, the friends. I went to his bed, which was my bed because he was sleeping in my room, and I said, "I was offered this, I do what you want." He had as a deputy, he loved radicalism, he loved politics. And I loved the story that he told me. It is there that Luis León came to talk to him. "Listen, Dad, the only thing I'm telling you is that you tell Raul Alfonsin that I'm going to vote against the Olivos agreement, I'm not going to vote for anything I did not teach in college." I said, that is to say that my ethic was in relation to my students.There, Alfonsin said his first: "I'm going to take care of the baby." Then I have accepted that I would vote against him and he was behind me.It was a mistake of the system and me too … If I had known! My son Ignacio was three months old, he is nowadays a lawyer and he is 25 years old.

"I just sold my car to pay my credit card."

─ But did you imagine this trajectory? Have you imagined that you would have to represent the challenge of a different policy in Argentina?

No never. I just did not want to be an accomplice. A Peronist Constitutionist whose name I do not remember, called me a day where I was going to badume and said, "Look, Lilita, I like it a lot." I hope you realize and do not do not be an accomplice, the Peronists and the radicals repair everything. "I was very afraid of being an accomplice, because this mandate would lead me to complicity. The truth is that I fought against corruption because I fought against complicity and I knew that silence is a form of complicity. Sometimes they say I'm a chronic journalist, but if I shut up, I'm a chronic accomplice.

There were a lot of disappointments then. From this place and from this conviction, you have had to face many disappointments and surprises.

PPuf! Only God knows. I do not like victimization, I do not like it. I am a protagonist, not a victim. If I am a victim, what remains to the rest of the population? I am a lioness ready to kill say the polls. Only God knows what I have lived.

How do you live this leadership and this place of great trust placed in you by many people, who have a great need?

"I feel responsible for the other and I also know that I will not betray it. I will not betray my electorate. My political relationship with people who love me is totally everyday. I'm not a doctor, I'm Lilita. I am in the street and I am Lilita: it was like that when I went to university and that I was a teacher and when I was in the Superior Court. I think it's a triumph because, with or without charge, I am. I have the gift of speech, communication. But I love so deeply the humanity and the other. Moreover, I am sorry even of those whom I accuse.

You said publicly.

Yes I want justice done, but I'm not happy with prison. I can not be happy and I can not wish for death.

Do you think that others, however, are angry and hate against you?

Yes yes Sometimes in the House it is irresistible. Jealousy and energies are terrible. Sometimes I lose the pressure and I can not resist all the time in the room. They sent me to fight in the mud without getting my hands dirty, like the lotus flower. The last time I had to go to Jerusalem …

Are you very often?

Whenever I can, I go to the wailing wall. They say this place is the laundry of the world and I think this experience is real. When my son died (N. of R .: Diego, son of Miguel Benítez, his last husband, with another couple), I could not shed a tear because I had to be the support of all: my ex-boyfriend husband, my children

─Furthermore, the farewell took place and the guarantee that the meeting is indelible. It was very particular.

That's true. And when all this happened with my son, I went on television and talked during the election campaign. Nobody noticed anything. I live as in parallel.

─ There is an extrapolation.

I am not a politician, I am a humanist. I could be president with agreements. If I accepted money from entrepreneurs, I was president. And I have determined two things that I have never changed. In the first place, I would not receive money from the business world because my freedom and independence were not worth the presidency. Secondly, this would not be part of obscure agreements. The most difficult problem for me was the case of Mauricio. Not for him, but for Franco Macri. I knew that it was necessary to avoid that Argentina be Venezuela, in every sense of the word.

At this moment?

Yes, 2015. Otherwise, it was Mature. I always realized that you had to lose to win. I like to be a loser and I have to be the most successful loser in history. I love defeat because defeat is a capitulation. This victory does not seduce me because it is a stupidity. On the other hand, defeat has this heroic and wonderful thing: they put you all the microphones so you badume you lost. It's heroically divine. You are facing a people and being a minority before a people is wonderful because they are the ones who reveal themselves to your principles. And this is not a problem of me, it is the other.

Was it painful?

Not at all. The 1.8 (N. of the Republic: This is the percentage of voters who got when he was presented as a presidential candidate in 2011) is what I love the most in the world. The 1.8 allowed us to win the change. There were five hundred thousand people who resisted, even knowing that I had lost, were those five hundred thousand who could later be seven million. I like a little game and without so many ambitions because I hate them. How do I travel the miseries? I forbid them. If in my party they come to extort me, there is nothing. I do not accept extortion and I do not ask for more.

"But when you had to talk about change, the figure of Franco Macri was a problem.

"Yes and I cried for three months for that. Until it becomes a duty. After it became a duty, I waited for it to become a conviction and I called it right there. There it was already January. That day, the agreement was concluded.

Your problem was not Mauricio, but Franco.

Yes, and also his family. But it was a meeting of brutal sincerity. And I do not regret it because I see a being growing up. That a man hands over money and that the whole family constitutes an impressive act of redemption, that Argentina should applaud and not complain so much. It is true that we are suffering, but how could we not suffer after being robbed of $ 150 billion?

"Despite all the theft and thefts committed by the previous government, do not you think that there were a lot of imperfections in the economy?

You learn to be president, this is not the central issue. In the world, there are clear sides: you are humanist or fascist. I know we are suffering. In fact, I just sold my car to pay my credit card. But I know it's worth it. It seems to me that our blindness is our greatest weakness. And this is in any social clbad because it is not a problem of the literate or the illiterate, the poor or the rich. It is a lightness problem on life that only certain species of heirs have, what is given and what has not been achieved.

"Often, I think the problem is that as long as there is no individual ethics embedded in a moral and group ethic, which concerns justice and the republic, there is no alternative.

─ However, we are in the alternative. Look at my figure: it's been 25 years and I've had millions of votes without a peso, without a poster. What do you mean? That we are on the way. The road is much longer, but more straight. The shortcut path is short term. I am fighting for another generation and I do not know if I will see it. My friends call me and invite me everywhere, they ask me why I make so many sacrifices and I tell them: "Someone had to open the cutlet". In the northern Argentine field, the bite is the branch of the forest that has a lot of thorns and that does not allow you to see on the other side. That's why it says that you have to open the rag to move to another ranch. What touched some of us and, in my case, was to open my mouth. Someone must do it to cross the city. If the city wants to move on or not, it's no longer my problem.

Are you scared, Lilita?

"Never. Since I'm a girl, I'm afraid of cuckoos, ghosts and all those things. But for men, never.

Are not you scared when you make a decision?

"No, because the only fear is the fear of death and I do not mind dying I'm ready to live a hundred years or live until tomorrow Wherever God says to me, I'm ready. waiting i enjoy, i love, i suffer, i play.I do politics and i can tell you that in this area, i am a strong player.

What do you mean by what do you play in politics? Are you a bettor?

─ Clear. I play hard, I m attack. I remember rugby: I play and play hard. It does not mean that I love power. On the contrary, I hate it because I love freedom. That's why I have the opportunity to use power. Who loves power, is trapped. When you despise it, it's like a bullet pbading by you. With what will you seduce me? With money will they make me fall in love? If I have never missed anything. Houses? I have already given them all to my ex-husband. Now, I'm making a house, but if I have to sell it, I'm not sure. I have no attachment to the subject.

Do you have a good dialogue with your children?

Yes it's a relationship … I'm a difficult mother. My father was also difficult because it was not the father who was always there, he went out for coffee and came back after two weeks. I am not the ideal mother and they laugh at each other. But I'm homemade. They love me and I love them, but they are children of life. Another thing: I do not miss. I can be a girlfriend with someone and not see it for years because I do not miss it … and it's so hard to understand! I like it a lot, but I do not miss it, because I also like loneliness. I arrive at home in the evening, I drink a coffee and listen to poetry.

How do you like it?

Many being in bed, with a coffee and a chocolate, it's paradise. I think if there was another person, as good as it is, it would bother me (laughs). If I ever have a husband, he will be in another room. I need my room, my coffee, my bible. In the drawer of my wake will also be my Bible, my cigarettes with my lighter and a pearl necklace. These three things are me.

You have a pretty unique position on many issues concerning the feminine, such as abortion and even marriage.

"To see … I will clarify because it seems important to me. I have all the anti-discrimination awards: I am the author of the anti-discrimination law. I am the only party where there are different badual identities because they are lives that I accept, want and protect. In all difficult life, God is present. As a friend says: "You have to be macho to be gay in Corrientes". I am also the author of the law on equal rights, opportunities and treatment in the Constitution. I am also the first woman to form a political party, the first to run for president, the first to join the Constitutional Affairs Committee of Argentina's history. I do not boast, I wear the flag of women. But I do not like machismo, neither men nor women. I believe we are equal, that we have the right to be people and to have the same opportunities. That there has been discrimination is true, but it gives us strength. In addition, I saved my status as a woman in the order of desire. It seems to me that women can not be bad objects and can not use their bad, as I sometimes see in Congress. But no one can look like a man by his manners and dress, as I sometimes see in politics. We are a woman.

What is supposed to be the proper and differentiated status of women's status, in terms of equal rights, but not to be expropriated from the condition of the woman in a sort of alienation that leads me to "look like a man".

"Look: I love the house and I think a lot of men now have permission to love the house.It was forbidden for the man to cry, it was forbidden to cook. I love the private world and I would like a man who loves the public world.The public world is my duty: you will see me on TV because I have the duty to be and to communicate, but you will not see me in an act To be a woman, to be able to attend, seems to me an extraordinary heritage of our grandmothers and great-grandmothers.

I ask you the last question, Lilita: What is the greatest hope you keep now?

─ humanity A civilization that remembers what a man, a woman and a person is. And the end of the company's image. It's central. The society of the spectacle generates a terrifying discrimination. I have no problem getting me to say that I'm fat. In my youth, it was 90-60-90, but I admit that now, I am also a bit of a burden to have the weight that I have and I do not want to die with a carrot anymore. . But there is a lot of discrimination and taunts. Theodor Adorno (philosopher, sociologist) says one sentence that we must not forget: "Beauty has to do with the truth.Then it had a relationship with joy, and then it became a laugh and a laugh became a mockery, and mockery became a public spectacle and the end of the culture came. "I am fighting for a humanistic renaissance.

HC