Francisco, only on Spanish television: "Fear is the material on which dictatorships are built"

… And suddenly, in the middle of the interview, at the Vatican, Jordi Évole took out a knife. One of the many that exist in the fence of Melilla and Ceuta, on the border with Morocco. The pope, who went a few days later to the kingdom of Alawi (this Sunday, he returned to Rome), took the concertina with deep sadness, shook his head and replied: "Unconsciousness is as it seems the most natural, we've got used to that. "

& # 39; Saved & # 39; this evening, a rich historical interview with titles and emotions: Pope Francis is undoubtedly a media animal. Surely the most influential pope of recent years and the most misunderstood of the open doors.

The program started with white smoke and the explanation given by the pope to call Francisco: "As I would like a poor church and for the poor," would say St. Francis of Assisi . The program was "transferred" to the thirteenth century, the birthplace of the poverello, staging the meeting with a young Francesco and a leper, who turned out to be Jesus himself. And that he had the same concertina that Évole had shown to Bergoglio.

Do you have enemies in the Vatican? "In theory, there may be some, but I have trouble declaring an enemy," he said almost at the end of a conversation that was supposed to address issues related to migration – Open Arms has a lot to do with the movie "Saved" today, Francisco has not neglected to review the reality of society and the Church. Abortion, euthanasia, badual abuse, the role of women … With moments of laughter and family confidences.

Francisco, during the interview

A pope who, at lunch, "we talk about everything, football, what comes out". A pope who "sleeps like a log, six hours in a row" and "never got used to living in the Vatican. "It's good to never get used to work because you lose the ability to change things." Francisco does not watch television and does not have a mobile phone either. "They gave me one when I was ordained bishop in 1992, I called my sister and a month later, I gave it up."

Find the corpses

"I have always defended the right to find corpses.A society can not smile in the future by hiding its dead.The dead must be buried, they must be individualized in cemeteries, but must not You will never be at peace with a dead person hidden ever. "Pope Francis responded to almost everything in a historic interview with Jordi Evole in" Saved ". With the exception of the exhumation of Franco who, he argued, is a subject that does not depend on the Vatican.

The answer concerning the graves of the Franco regime is not the result of an improvisation. Bergoglio lived in his own flesh during the dictatorship of Videla in Argentina, which extrapolated to the Spanish reality. "In Argentina, there were more than 30,000 at the time of the dictatorship, and I was close to that, I've always defended the right to the truth about what's going on." The right to a dignified burial To find the corpses In Argentina, one always does it, slowly … It's a right, not just a right of the family, of the society.

"The world forgot to cry"

The interview took place on March 22, a few days before the trip that the pope had just completed in Morocco. In a moment of the same thing, Évole has taken from his pocket a blade similar to the one still seen today in the barriers of Ceuta and Melilla. Francisco took the piece of concertina and, with deep sadness, shook his head, looked at him and replied: "I think that anyone who has to cross this fence, whoever does it is my son, my mother, my brother. the unconsciousness that seems to us the most natural.We have got used to that.The world has forgotten to cry.It is the most inhuman thing that is.This shows how much mankind has. a person can come down. "

"He who raises a wall finds himself prisoner of the wall he has erected, and that is the universal law, and it happens in the social order and in the staff. people, you find yourself prisoner of the wall that you have erected, "said Bergoglio." The alternative is the bridges, which are an invention of God, are the wings of the angels that God invented so that men could communicate . "

My catholics messing

Évole asked: What would you say to Spanish Catholics who refuse immigration? "Read the Gospel: These are Catholics who have read the Gospel, and to be consistent," replied the Pope, who also spoke of the attitude of some church media Spanish: "Some, I know them, yes, mbad Catholics, and they only mess with others"

Bergoglio defended the work of organizations such as Open Arms, whose ship is still held in the port of Barcelona. "It seems to me a very great injustice.What is it done? While they drown? It's simplistic, but if you can not save them .. And why do they come? They live in despair, united to such a great illusion, that they throw themselves to themselves … They do not measure the consequences, and we do not measure the pain of these people. "

The pope, who has repeatedly denounced the fact that the Mediterranean has become the largest cemetery in Europe, confessed his "pain, a lot of pain" when he found that Europe, impbadive witnessed the deaths of thousands of migrants in its waters. "I do not understand, I do not understand the insensitivity, or I do not understand the injustice of the war, the injustice of hunger, the unfairness of the exploitation , which makes a person migrate in search of better things, and the injustice of anyone closing the door. "

Europe has aged at the same time

"Europe mother has become too grandmother, she has aged all at once.It is the problem of Europe, it is that he forgot when, after the war, his children were going to knock on the doors of America … In Europe, we forget that Europe is full of immigrants, but it is also now that they come from other countries. Do you want to tell me that those of Africa are second – rate?

Évole asked him about the fear generated by these crises. "The Nobel Prize for the most abject thing was national socialism, with corpses everywhere and a lack of human dignity, it can be repeated, totally, it repeats itself, fear is the material on which dictatorships are built". Did the church play with fear?, Asked the reporter. "Obviously, we have a story that sometimes annoys us."

Vatican money

About money, the pope denounced the fact that "there are fewer and fewer rich people with a lot of money and more and more poor people with a lot of money. Although he said that "I am not anti-capitalist, I believe in healthy capitalism, the social doctrine of the Church does not condemn objective but just forms." I am the social doctrine of the Church, I am neither anti-capitalist nor anti-socialist. "

Do you have to pay IBI? "The men of the Church are citizens and must fulfill all their rights as citizens, there are things dedicated to worship, there are properties dedicated to the social purpose. not grown or common good, you have to pay taxes. "It's true:" I can not sell a San Pedro brick ".

Francisco was also very critical of the sale of arms from Spain to Saudi Arabia although, as he supposed, "it is not the only government". And he issued a warning. "If you arm the war there, you'll have it at home, whether you like it or not."

Abuse and process

On the abuse, Francisco again asked the victims to be patient. "The concrete things of the summit had to initiate processes, and it takes time, I understand people who are unhappy because when there is pain between the two, you have to be quiet, pray, cry, accompany, point. But initiating processes is the way to make the treatment irreversible. "But also who wants to clean up:" I try to clean up myself, creating clean management guidelines … that it does not have. there is no room for dirt in the structure, … but it is very slow, and I tell you that there are problems in the Vatican ".

With regard to abortion, the pope said he understood that a woman who was trafficked and who becomes pregnant wants to have an abortion, but "I also know that it is not lawful to eliminate a human life to solve a problem ". Thus, he said "respect" the person who voluntarily decides to engage in prostitution, "operating networks are another thing."

If a girl becomes pregnant as a result of this violation, "I would understand, but I also know that it is not permissible to eliminate a human life to solve a problem."

No to machismo with skirts

On the role of women in the Church, the Pope admitted that "it is very sad, we are all in the service, but it seems that women are also reserved for servitude." Women are protagonists in the world. Church, but we have to move on, and it's more expensive. "

Francisco wanted to explain his controversial sentence about feminism ("a machismo with skirts"). "The right phrase should be: Any feminism can run the risk of becoming a machismo with skirts." The other was wrong.

There was also a moment to talk about the Vatican and the "temple merchants" that still exist today inside the church. "There is, there is, as everywhere." The state of the Vatican City is not saved from the limits, sins and shame of other societies, here we are men and women. we have the same limits and sometimes we fall into the same things. " What to do in front of? "You have to clean, the job is to clean, clean, clean." Will he be able to do it? This is the subject of another interview, or perhaps of the story.