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As mayor of Burlington from 1981 to 1989, Bernie Sanders attempted to infiltrate local politics in international issues. From the beginning of his mandate, Mr. Sanders aimed to implement his own foreign policy, denying President Ronald Reagan's aggressive support to anti-communist governments and resistance forces, while going further than many Democrats in support for socialist leaders.
In an article published on Friday, the New York Times outlined Sanders' views on foreign policy during his tenure, including the Sandinista government in Nicaragua and the Soviet Union, and explained how his activities at that time had brought to light the fiercely anti-imperialist world view. it would continue to guide him.
Mr. Sanders, an independent Vermont senator who is running for the Democratic presidential nomination, initially refused a request for an interview for the article. But after its publication, he asked for a phone interview.
What follows is a modified and condensed version of the conversation.
Mr. Sanders Let me say this: I plead guilty, throughout my adult life, to do everything in my power to prevent war and destruction.
As a young person, well before having held any position whatsoever, I was actively opposed to the war in Vietnam. As mayor, I did my best to stop American foreign policy, which for years had overthrown the governments of Latin America and set up puppet regimes.
As mayor of a small town, I did everything in my power to prevent the United States from participating in a new war in Central America by attempting to overthrow a government.
I am very proud that, in my small town, we have set up two twinned programs which, I honestly believe, are still going on today: one with Yaroslavl, a Russian city, the only one in the world. another with a city, Puerto Cabezas, Nicaragua. And I think that cultural exchanges and student exchanges are a very important tool for bringing people together and avoiding wars.
While we were there, I also helped to lead the opposition to the war in Iraq, I voted against the first war and the second war. I have done everything to try to get the United States out of Yemen in a war that causes incredible destruction in this country. And I will do everything I can to ensure that we are not involved in a war in Iran.
That's my point of view and I do not apologize.
Q. At the top of our story, we are talking about the rally you attended in Managua. A telegraphed report at the time said that there were anti-American chants of the crowd.
At that time, the United States – I do not know how much you know about it – actively supported the Contras to overthrow the government. For there to be an anti-American feeling? I remember, I remember very well this event.
Do you remember hearing these songs? I think that after the wire, they say, "Here, over there, everywhere, the Yankees will die."
They were fighting against the Americans – – huh, huh – yes, what do you mean?
I wanted –
Are you shocked to learn that there was an anti-American feeling?
I wanted to know if you had heard that.
I do not remember, no. Of course, there was an anti-American feeling. It was a US-funded war against the Nicaraguan people. People have been killed in this war.
Do you think that if you had heard this directly, you would have stayed at the rally?
I think Sydney, with all due respect, you do not understand a word I'm saying.
Do you believe you have an exact vision of President Ortega at the time? I wonder if you are –
It was not about Ortega. Do you understand? I do not know if you do it or not. Do you know that the United States overthrew the Chilean government a long time ago? Do you know it? Do you? I'm asking you a simple question.
What point do you want to make?
What I mean is that fascism has developed in Chile as a result of this. The United States overthrew the government of Guatemala, a democratically elected government, which overthrew the Brazilian government. I am strongly opposed to the American policy of overthrowing governments, especially democratically elected governments, around the world. So it is not so much Nicaragua as it is about the Government of Nicaragua.
The question was whether the United States should continue its policy of overthrowing governments in Latin America and Central America. I thought then that it was wrong and I believe today that it is wrong. That's why I do not think the United States should overthrow the Venezuelan government.
I wonder if you now consider Ortega and the government differently, knowing what you are doing now?
Well, it's now 30 years later, right?
Something like that.
I am very concerned about the anti-democratic policies of the Ortega government, yes.
Is there anything you thought of Latin America or the Soviet Union in the 1980s that you no longer believe in today?
No. The Soviet Union was an authoritarian dictatorship, that's what I thought then, and that's what I think is the case today. That's what they were.
On the other hand, I was going to do everything in my power to prevent a nuclear war between the United States and the Soviet Union.
During your visit to Yaroslavl, you compared the US and Soviet economic systems and praised certain aspects of the Soviet system, such as the free provision of health care and the efficiency of public transport. Do you still admire these aspects of the Soviet system?
The principle of free health care for all is absolutely right.
The truth is also that the Soviet system – the quality of care in the Soviet Union – was not particularly good. But the principle of free health care or affordable housing is a good principle. The quality of housing in the Soviet Union was not particularly good. So, what the Soviet Union did, is to provide people with free stuff or inexpensively, but the quality was not very good.
You have always described American spending on defense and armaments as a loss of social resources and municipal infrastructure. As president, how much would you like to transfer money from the military to social assistance?
I do not know what the word social welfare means. What does it mean? Does this mean rebuilding our ruined infrastructure? Does this refer to social well-being? Does this mean that public colleges and universities do not have to pay for tuition?
I think we need to maintain a strong defense, but I think that military spending can be reduced and that this money can be used to guarantee our children a quality education and to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure.
Can you describe what foreign policy would look like under President Sanders? You talk a lot about diplomacy, and when you were mayor, you talked about interpersonal contacts. What does it look like?
It means working with our allies to try to resolve the very difficult international conflicts that exist around the world. It means investing money in the state department and having the best diplomat possible to try to bring people together.
At present, apparently, John Bolton is looking forward to a war in Iran. In my opinion, what we should do, is to say to Saudi Arabia – a despotic and deadly regime – that he must begin to sit down and negotiate with him. Iran to bring peace to the region and not to aggravate a very volatile situation.
In fact, I agree with Trump – one of the very few times I've done that – about his willingness to sit down with Kim Jong Un and try to sort out the very difficult situation of nuclear weapons in Korea. North.
But basically, it means we are using our incredible resources to try to bring the warring factions together. We have the best army in the world and I may not be a pacifist and need to use this army.
I think we are going as far as we can to try to find diplomatic solutions to the problems without engaging in a military conflict.
Do you think that your vision of foreign policy and how to lead it separates you from other Democrats?
Well, I think the United States is the richest and most powerful nation in the world. So, I believe – and do not hear anything else – that the United States must play a leading role in international affairs around the world. I believe that. I do not think we should overthrow governments and I do not think we should be engaged in endless wars. But the United States has the capacity – with its wealth and military strength – to do everything in its power to support democracy, human rights and peaceful solutions to international conflicts.
If it separates me from the other Democratic candidates, so be it.
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