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Judge Józef Iwulski went to TVN24 to share his vision of reality with Andrzej Morozowski. He spoke, for example, of how he was incorporated into the OSF, and on the occasion he revealed that in martial law … he was still a member of Solidarity. Later, he became much more serious. Iwulski even began to demand the return of Małgorzata Gersdorf
It began with the fact that when asked how to address it: "First President of the SN" or "Acting as President of the SN", Judge Iwulski responded that he strongly opts for the second. option. The conversation quickly unfolded on the subject of the day – the Trump-Putin meeting. Judge Iwulski, asked about the comparison of Polish courts in the United States and Russia, said that "Polish courts are more oriented to the United States"
– Independence and Independence have not been broken – Iwulski
. There was a thread of Iwulski's participation in the condemnation of anti-communist opposition activists during the communist era and even during martial law. What does Iwulski say all this? He claims that he does not remember individual issues …
– I remember one thing, but I do not remember others. I have this information […] a publisher of "Dziennik Gazeta Prawna" m has submitted documents, which he had access in the IPN. These are the cases in which I have participated in the panels of arbitration. There are my signatures there, but I do not remember those questions, with the exception of Judge Iwulski
After a while, he made a sentimental trip to TVN24 and started to remember his appearance before the military court. ]
– If I can, I would say how I ended up in this military court. I did not go there voluntarily. I was forced into the army by force. Today, it is difficult to talk at all, because young people do not understand … I finished my studies and I went to the army for a year. In my day, we called it the school of reserve officers. The lawyers usually went to the WSW, I'll say right away … because I'm also accused of being in a counterintelligence or interview. Virtually all lawyers went to WSW for a year. After this school, after the stay of this year, I obtained the rank of second lieutenant. Then I was normally a judge. I was thinking in a civil court and how martial law began, in the first half of the year I was not called, and in the second half … I think that from from July, or perhaps from August 1982, I was sent to the Krakow Military Court. It was a constraint … of course. If I refused to go … military service, of course, he was under martial law … – Iwulski recalled.
Andrzej Morozowski, who led the conversation, asked for details:
– You are enlisted in the army and you are the judge. Can you refuse? – The reporter asks.
– In my opinion, with the same threat, it's like I'm refusing to do the service properly? – adds Iwulski.
– How to make a command like this? If you did not have a choice? – continues Morozowski's theme.
– I had the choice I just presented, but I could not afford such heroism – points out Judge Iwulski
After a while, the thread the most surprising appears – surprising even Morozowski himself. Judge Iwulski admits that at the time he ruled during martial law and took part in the process of anti-communist opposition activists, he himself was a member of Solidarity. because he "did not sign". – I also refused to sign Solidarity after the imposition of martial law. It depended very much on the president of the provincial court, the court in which they ruled … – says Iwulski
– You were in solidarity when he ruled in the military court? Paradox. – asked Morozowski.
– I did not sign. This can be a legal problem. I was or was not I? Solidarity was then suspended. Nobody asked me. How they integrated me in the army …
Formally, he was a member of Solidarity and judged other members of Solidarity as a judge of a military court.
– You can say that – says Iwulski
– Do you regret doing it then?
– When I decided to stay, of course, in any case I tried to do something with then the law in force … It was the law then. In one case, I managed to write a separate sentence. This was the most serious case, there were probably five members of the KPN accused. In one case, they were acquitted because of the absence of evidence in three or four cases, so the sentence was suspended, but there was a case in which nothing could be done. The only thing you could do was the lowest penalty. Please remember that I ruled in the deputies only in one case, and in other cases, I ruled in professional groups, with professional soldiers. In general, this atmosphere in this garrison court, you can imagine the publisher … As it is said today on the stun effect, there was only "one". a chilling effect – says Iwulski.
There was also a WSW training thread. Judge Iwulski recounted what he remembered from the training … According to him, the training as a whole was "normal".
– Does this mean that you were a WSW associate?
– That's the truth. Yes! WSW. As I said, lawyers usually went to WSW. WSW had three divisions there: counterintelligence, intelligence, and investigation and prevention divisions. I had nothing to do with the counter-intelligence and the intelligence, as I said …
– What was this training about?
– Well, normally … the military was … trained … and legal from the military point of view … true … so special. It was half a year. Half a year ago there was a barracks …
– Have not you educated a spy?
– The pleasant editor? Really? You imagine that a little counterintelligence or intelligence takes somebody from one civilian and trains him … in time … The normal barracks were … For the students […] There is no cooperation. I also read that someone accused me of making a false statement of lustration because WSW was included in state security organs. In fact, it is only in the lustration law that a provision applies only to people who have voluntarily served in the WSW, and not to the people who have been appointed. – Iwulski claims.
During the conversation, there was also another thread, quite particular. At one point, Iwulski said that if he had committed a crime 40 years ago and even killed someone, he would have left the prison today and his sentence would have disappeared
– After 30 years, when I was 30 years old I am a Supreme Court judge … asking me for such allegations … That does not translate what happened to the current state and what I've been doing it for 30 years and what I'm doing now. […] I do not really feel like a person undergoing purification. I've done everything I needed, and in the last 30 years, I've certainly done what Judge SN should do. Well, I may have been around for a long time, but I could be a little, and I think I have a lot of experience and knowledge and I was not the worst judge of the Supreme Court. Well, of course, you can have a different opinion … although even though I committed crimes 40 years ago … murdered someone, I would have left the prison and all would be lost, such a conviction – convinced Judge Iwulski.
At the end of the conversation, it was really dangerous. When asked about the follow-up to the Supreme Court, Judge Iwulski explicitly stated:
– It will end sooner or later with the judgment of the Court of Justice of the European Union. The Tribunal has jurisdiction to make an order in reverse. He can restore the duty. – announced Iwulski.
It sounded like a threat? This is nothing
– Will the Tribunal reinstate the first president of Gersdorf? – asked Morozowski
– that may be the case. Judge Iwulski expressed his conviction that when the Court of Justice of the European Union deals with the reform of the judicial system and the situation around the court, the court can decide that the first president should not be reinstated. The Supreme in Poland is only a matter of time. At the same time, he explained that any district court could ask a question in the court of the EU and impose one way or another such reaction. There is one condition – "there must be an appropriate case with the so-called European element."
– Do you have such things? – dopytywał Morozowski
– We have. I do not know why the individual compositions of such a question have not asked […] so it is so, there will be no issue … Everyone has been counting on the EC. The European Commission could have done three months ago what it is doing now – said Iwulski
– My grandmother taught me that it was better not to rely on the others.
– Of course! Do you want to make it good? Do it yourself! – Judge Iwulski repliedPromoting independent media Keep this article on Facebook and Twitter
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