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CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday, turning against Trump. The long-standing personal advocate of the president, Michael Cohen, is apparently willing to say that the president knew in advance the infamous Trump Tower meeting with the Russians.
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
It seems that the former lawyer and confidante of the president is ready to speak.
CHUCK TODD:
And Cohen publishes a tape discussing the purchase of the story of a former playmate who says that she had an affair with Mr. Trump .
DONALD TRUMP:
What financing?
MICHAEL COHEN:
Well, I'm going to have to pay him something.
(OVERTALK)
MICHAEL COHEN:
No, no, no, no, no. I have it. No no no.
DONALD TRUMP:
Check –
CHUCK TODD:
Rudy Giuliani attacks Cohen.
RUDY GIULIANI:
The man is a liar. A proven liar.
CHUCK TODD:
Shortly after renting it.
RUDY GIULIANI:
The man is an honest and honorable lawyer.
CHUCK TODD:
How much does Cohen pose a threat to President Trump? My guests this morning, former Trump political adviser Sam Nunberg and Republican Senator Rob Portman from Ohio. Plus, weapons and poses. Maria Butina loves weapons, conservatives grown, and is now in prison, arrested as a Russian agent. Does she hold the key to an NRA-Russia connection? And base the policy. Today marks 100 days before polling day. It's the democratic enthusiasm against Trump's loyalty. With me today are Andrea Mitchell, chief of foreign affairs for NBC News, Eddie Glaude, Jr. of Princeton University, Peggy Noonan, columnist for the Wall Street Journal, and Matthew Continetti, editor-in-chief. leader of the Washington Free Beacon. Welcome to Sunday. It's meet the press.
MALE VOICE:
From NBC News to Washington, the longest-running television story. That's Meet thePress with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. Perhaps nothing better illustrates how President Trump wants his supporters to see the world as this moment of his speech at the VFW on Wednesday.
DONALD TRUMP:
What you see and what you read is not what happens.
CHUCK TODD:
That's right. "What you see and what you read is not what happens." D & # 39; agreement. Despite his Orwellian phrasing, President Trump wants people to know that the economy grew by 4.1% in the second quarter. This is the highest since 2014 under President Obama. But beyond that, the news was not good for the president this week. There were more and more signs of a democratic blue wave in the midterm elections, now exactly 100 days away.
We learned that federal prosecutors were seeking to interview Allen Weisselberg, Trump's chief financial officer and someone who knows as much as anyone else about how the Trump and Trump organizations have personally do business and with whom. But there have been two other stories that have attracted the most attention this week. And they both involve former long-standing president's lawyer, friend and fixer Michael Cohen.
Not only did Cohen broadcast a strip of his talks on the – with candidate Trump Hush's cash payments to a Playboy model to which Mr. Trump was linked. He seems ready to tell special advocate Robert Mueller that Mr. Trump was aware of the infamous Trump Tower meeting with the Russians in advance. If Michael Cohen tells this version of events and if he can prove it, he could turn out to be the game changer even for members of Mr. Trump's own party.
WOMEN'S VOICE:
Is Michael Cohen lying?
CHUCK TODD:
For over a year, President Trump and his substitutes have denied knowing of the June 2016 meeting with Kremlin agents at Trump Tower, including his son, his handsome – son, and his campaign president of that time, who is now behind bars.
DONALD TRUMP:
No, I did not know anything about the meeting.
SEAN HANNITY:
Did you say anything to your father?
DONALD TRUMP JR .:
No. It was such nothing. There was nothing to say.
JAY SEKULOW:
Well, the chairman said that he had become aware of it very recently just before it came out. And that's when he was informed.
CHUCK TODD:
And this week the President reiterated: "I did not know the meeting with my son, it seems to me that someone is trying to tell stories to get out of there. a conflict jam. " What someone? The former personal attorney and chairman of the board, Michael Cohen, who is himself a potential witness, indicating that he is ready to tell special advisor Robert Mueller that Mr. Trump knew and approved the meeting at l & # 39; advance.
LANNY DAVIS:
It's about the truth against lying. And finally Donald Trump is going to be done by the truth.
CHUCK TODD:
Cohen is under investigation for bank fraud and possible campaign funding violations by federal prosecutors in New York, who are also examining his role in the campaign. Mr. Trump. On Tuesday, he aired this tape through his attorney, who seems to be referring to a silent money payment two months before the election to keep an old Playboy model quiet about ########################################################################### 39, an alleged affair with Mr. Trump.
MICHAEL COHEN:
We are going to have to pay him something.
(OVERTALK)
DONALD TRUMP:
– pay cash.
MICHAEL COHEN:
No, no, no, no, no. I have it. No no no.
DONALD TRUMP:
– check.
CHUCK TODD:
A few months ago, Mr. Trump's lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, praised Cohen.
RUDY GIULIANI:
The man is an honest and honorable lawyer.
CHUCK TODD:
But now.
RUDY GIULIANI:
He lies all week. He has been lying for years. He lied all his life.
CHUCK TODD:
M. Trump is desperately trying to prevent Russia from consummating its presidency. Only 26% of voters approve his treatment of the relationship between the United States and Russia. US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo was grilled this week even by skeptical Republicans after Trump's two-hour private meeting and press conference with Russian President Vladimir Putin.
SEN. BOB CORKER:
It is the president's public statements that worry senators on both sides of the House.
MIKE POMPEO:
Some of these statements actually lead to important political results for the United States of America.
SEN. BOB CORKER:
Some of them do it.
MIKE POMPEO:
Yes.
SEN. BOB CORKER:
And some of them very damaging.
CHUCK TODD:
And now, Mr. Trump more often avoids questions from the press, refusing to answer questions 10 times since the release of the Michael Cohen recording on Tuesday night.
FEMALE REPORTER:
M. President, are you going to Moscow? Do you want to go to Moscow?
CHUCK TODD:
Well, let's better understand this relationship between the president and Michael Cohen. I am joined now by Sam Nunberg. He was a political advisor to President Trump before and during the 2016 campaign. Mr. Nunberg, welcome to Meet the Press.
SAM NUNBERG:
It's an honor.
CHUCK TODD:
Let's start with that. Just a simple question, that is to say that you have seen these two people interact a bit, President Trump. Help us understand the relationship between President Trump and Michael Cohen.
SAM NUNBERG:
Michael was one of the closest people I saw with the president. Very dedicated to him. A sense of loyalty, which I believed at least until this week when I learned that he was recording it in person. A sense of loyalty was yes, he would take a ball for him. He would do anything for him.
CHUCK TODD:
And, what is it – your sense that Michael Cohen is essentially occupying things. – When you hear the term fixer, what is it? The president has a problem, he treats them. Is this how it was known around Trump Tower?
SAM NUNBERG:
Yes. Look, it was in Michael's field. Problems like this were. These are Michael's responsibilities.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to play an excerpt from the recording that Michael Cohen's legal team has published. It's here.
[BEGIN TAPE]
MICHAEL COHEN:
I need to open a company for the transfer of all this information concerning our friend David –
DONALD TRUMP:
Yeah .
MICHAEL COHEN:
You know, so I'll do it right away. I came and spoke –
DONALD TRUMP:
Give me that.
MICHAEL COHEN:
– and I talked to Allen Weisselberg about how to put everything up –
DONALD TRUMP:
So what is it? we will do?
MICHAEL COHEN: – financing.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
This exchange. I know you were not there for that. I will not sit there and assume you were there for that. Are you familiar anyway? This style of exchange and back-and-forth between the president and Michael Cohen?
SAM NUNBERG:
Again, the idea that Michael was recording in this office – when I heard that, I had the impression that you were back on the 26th floor of Trump Tower. And remember, they have never consumed this transaction. So, there is no idea that there is a FEC violation. That said, yes. It sounds like the conversations you would hear in private.
CHUCK TODD:
Why – you talked about it, you said Michael Cohen was very loyal and dedicated –
SAM NUNBERG:
Good.
CHUCK TODD:
– to Mr. Trump. Have you ever seen Mr. Trump be faithful to him?
SAM NUNBERG:
Well, finally, I felt that he was not there. And me, you know, and I sympathize with Michael. I understand how Michael feels. I felt like that. That said, Chuck, for someone like me, who defended Michael publicly, I mean when he takes Lanny Davis out of the Clinton crypt, and decides to start talking about Watergate, releasing those tapes, and 39, is a bridge too far.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you saying that you do not consider yourself a friend of Michael Cohen anymore? You did it, I did it just a few days ago.
SAM NUNBERG:
No, he's a … he's a friend of mine.
CHUCK TODD:
agree.
SAM NUNBERG:
I love him personally. Once again, I feel bad for what his family is going through. But vis-à-vis his professional relationship with the president, that is, I mean, it's very unethical, if not, otherwise. you know how to be – written off for what he did.
CHUCK TODD:
Who says the truth?
SAM NUNBERG:
In terms of?
CHUCK TODD:
Who says the truth here? What are the words should we take here? Did Michael Cohen suggest that the chair was aware of these various payments, or that the chair said he knew very little about them?
SAM NUNBERG:
But there was no payment. But let 's say we hear this conversation. But finally, if you ask me who I believe, the president or Michael Cohen, with what Michael Cohen can say, for example when Michael Cohen says, now, that the president knew the meeting of Russia in advance, I believe Don Jr. and the President in light of Michael's recordings of conversations, the way Michael behaved behind the scenes and in front of us all.
CHUCK TODD: So you say, let's go to, you raised the, this infamous Trump Tower. Would not it be unusual for Donald Trump, Jr. to never tell his father about it?
SAM NUNBERG: Yes. Look, under normal circumstances, if you asked the question, if you asked in general, I would think the chair had been informed, especially because it was a relationship. Everyone can understand, this was done by the Agalarov family. It was a relationship. They had hosted the president legally, perfectly legally, in Moscow for Miss Universe. They had talked about a Trump tower in Moscow over the years. That said, because you understand Trump Tower, you have worked through it, but remember, the email was sent directly to Don, Jr. of Goldstone. It was not sent to Mr. Trump's executive assistant, Rhonna Graff.
CHUCK TODD:
Okay
SAM NUNBERG:
So, there is, I would say if you were to ask me, specifically now, and in light of the learning, the one that Michael was registering the president, two – two, there is no band of this, I would say the president.
CHUCK TODD:
You say that you are so shocked here that Michael Cohen was recording. Michael Cohen had this reputation among all the Trump people I've ever met and who said, oh yeah, Michael Cohen, hey, he's typing everybody.
SAM NUNBERG:
Correct. I thought he was recording all the phone conversations. You know, for example, that he had an iPhone and that he was recording all the conversations. He recorded everything, you know, plays them back to the president. It would be something. But to record people, when you sit at the desk with them, it was very suspicious. I never thought that. I never thought that if I was sitting in front of him in his office, I had recorded it.
CHUCK TODD:
Why do you think the President – a part of this decision potentially by Michael Cohen may have to do with one of two things, the number one, no one seems to want to pay his legal bills, and that bothered him.
SAM NUNBERG:
That's right.
CHUCK TODD:
The RNC paid the legal bills of Hope Hicks.
SAM NUNBERG:
Many of them.
CHUCK TODD:
And would not pay Michael Cohen. Is it a motivation here, do you think, for Michael Cohen?
SAM NUNBERG:
Well, remember, they were paying Michael Cohen's legal bills before going to the South District. And I thought it was unfair and I even said it, you know, when I said Michael – remember that I was quoted by Maggie Haberman, I'm not sure. said "good Michael has the power here." What I meant was that he should pay his legal bills. That said, they are not conducting an illegal investigation on the Trump Org, and that this concerns Michael's private affairs, that the President has given him the latitude to lead to Trump Org, I do not think so. that they necessarily had to. And maybe even that they knew or suspected that he was recording conversations with the president.
CHUCK TODD:
Why do you think the President did not want to offer him a pardon?
SAM NUNBERG:
I do not think the president has hindered this investigation. He now understands that he can not shoot Robert Mueller, he can not shoot at Jeff Sessions, he can not fire Rod Rosenstein because it would go into the Watergate model, and that's what it's all about. They go down to finally get his indictment.
CHUCK TODD:
Did Michael Cohen ever tell you who knew about this Trump Tower meeting?
SAM NUNBERG:
No. Remember that I was fired in 2015, I had not been to Trump Tower, and I was sued.
CHUCK TODD:
No, I understand, then you ended up being brought back, I mean, it was strange – you had a strange relationship with – in the world of Trump.
SAM NUNBERG:
I had never heard – I have never discussed this with Michael or anyone else, about the meeting after that. It has been reported. What I said, what I said, is that when I saw this statement that was originally given to the New York Times, I thought, oh no I beg you, and I was happy to see complete e-mail channel.
CHUCK TODD:
Did you feel that the president had misled?
SAM NUNBERG:
I had the feeling that they were not clear and that they were going to make a mountain a molehill.
CHUCK TODD:
Has the president ever lied?
SAM NUNBERG:
Did he ever lie? Directly, about a problem? No. Has he ever lied on the question of whether or not I was in the Trump organization? No. But there were obviously problems that I would not have asked him. So there was no reason for me to say … to explain that, there was no reason for me to go ask him, "And about this accusation or it? It was not my business. And I did not want to know.
CHUCK TODD:
I understand that. But as a kind of character witness. At the end of the day, and I know what you said about Michael Cohen, because you, you seem to be – the fact that he is secretly typing someone, you think that it goes to his character, would you be able to be comfortable saying that President Trump is telling the truth?
SAM NUNBERG:
Tell the truth about this investigation and the ultimate collusion?
CHUCK TODD:
Yes, agree, how about being so precise, yes.
SAM NUNBERG:
Yes, I would do it. Yes I would like.
CHUCK TODD:
That he is telling the truth as a whole, you are not comfortable saying it?
SAM NUNBERG:
Telling – I mean look, when I was working with him, he was playing – when I was working for him, excuse me, he's playing everybody out of everyone. He was saying something to someone, saying something else to someone else. But it was his motivation, his management. And frankly, he loved, Chuck. So, but with that said, he has never, ever lied about anything, for example, business. And for example when they call Allen Weisselberg now – and I think they call him because of Lanny Davis' recording, then their relationship with Michael is definitely over. I would just like to say very quickly that everything has always been done from top to bottom. The president always said: "Everything must be legal, I do not get fined, I do not want to do anything here.
CHUCK TODD:
You told me about it, you just mentioned Allen Weisselberg, the former chief financial officer, what does he know about Trump World? Is he the guy who knows everything?
SAM NUNBERG:
Look, he knows every financial transaction, he is responsible for creating the business system that they had there. And I think in the end, and I told everyone, I told you if you've already asked me, ultimately he's going to be, basically, a witness of character for Trump Org, and it's going to go out positively because they did not do it, trust me, Donald Trump knew that he was in the spotlight. He had, he had, you know, he had a contract with NBC. All that was done was up and up. That's what I believe at least.
CHUCK TODD:
Okay, Sam Nunberg, thank you for coming, to share your points of view and help me. Thank you very much.
CHUCK TODD:
Now, let me address the elusive side of things. I am accompanied by Republican Senator Rob Portman, from Ohio, who sits on the Foreign Relations Committee and who was one of the senators to have attracted this week Secretary of State Mike Pompeo on the relations between Trump and Putin. Senator Portman, welcome to Meet the Press, sir.
SEN. ROB PORTMAN:
Chuck, it's good to be with you again.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with the situation of Michael Cohen, because it now contradicts something that Donald Trump Jr. has sworn in Congress, and whether under oath or not, lie to Congress is a crime. . Donald Trump Jr. told the Judiciary Committee that he had not spoken to his father about anything from the Trump Tower meeting, before or after. Michael Cohen is apparently contradicting him. Should Michael Cohen be called before the Judiciary Committee and clarify that as soon as possible?
SEN. ROB PORTMAN:
I think the Mueller investigation is probably where it should be cleared up, but you know, it's up to the Judiciary Committee.
CHUCK TODD:
If it's something that – let me ask you this question, you as a Republican senator, would you like the Judiciary Committee to clean that up a bit since that? did they go this way, or would you say Punt? You would say to Senator Grassley, your advice would be, "Leave him alone?"
SEN. ROB PORTMAN:
Well, I think it's going to be, you know, he said and he said problem. So, I think it's probably better, you know, it goes through the regular process, which is going on, Chuck. And I think the Mueller investigation should also be completed. I mean, we must have the facts lead to the right conclusion, and therefore I support the investigation, I have from the beginning. But we need to wrap up, and you know, I'm not an expert on Michael Cohen, I've never met the guy. I am not a member of the Judiciary Committee. I am not involved in this problem directly. But I think it's important for us to get to the bottom of things, but do it quickly.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me move on to the subject–
SEN. ROB PORTMAN:
We have many other problems.
CHUCK TODD:
Yes, I know. Allow me to turn to the subject on which you were preparing Secretary Pompeo on the question of Russia. It seemed that it was not the case – his comments did not satisfy many senators and they were rather controversial, particularly with regard to politics. Let me play a mashup.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Politics are instructions, and instructions are policies. It's going both ways …
MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY:
Oh, that's not true. This is absolutely not true. People do a lot – I make a lot of statements, it's not an American policy.
SEN. BOB MENENDEZ:
I want you to think of the suggestion that what the president says is not the politics of the United States.
MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY:
I did not express myself well, that's the case. The president calls the balloon. His statements are, in fact, a policy.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Are you as confused now as you were before the hearing about who is responsible for politics with Russia: the President, l & # 39; administration? Do they contradict it? Are declarations used as policy? What was your interpretation of what you heard?
SEN. ROB PORTMAN:
Well, at first I thought Pompeo did a great job. I was there practically throughout the entire hearing and it lasted several hours. And what I liked, it is that he has very clearly and coherently exposed our problems with Russia, the fact that, we know, we continue to have problems. policies that are very strict. More frankly, than the previous administration, the most severe sanctions since the cold war.
We are arming the Ukrainians, which is something, as you know, I pushed the Obama administration and the Trump administration. We finally do it so that they can defend themselves. We just gave them $ 200 million more. We send more troops to Europe, we do exercises in Eastern Europe, do not make the Kremlin happy.
And then we push back in other ways. We talked about the Global Engagement Center, which repels misinformation and propaganda from Russia, which I have been thinking for a long time. And I congratulate Secretary Pompeo because he has set it up and uses it aggressively. So Chuck, it 's interesting, you know, there are worries, as I said after Helsinki of an inconsistent public attitude towards Russia. But in terms of politics, I think the administration does things that are appropriate and very difficult. And I think that is also clearly expressed to the audience.
CHUCK TODD:
But I want to go back to the summit in Helsinki, because now Vladimir Putin says that he came to Washington, he proposed another invitation, he said that they seemed to have a lot of constructive conversations. Moscow seems to be rather happy with the summit. you were rather unhappy. What does that tell you?
SEN. ROB PORTMAN:
We do not know what happened behind closed doors, so I do not know if I should be happy or not. My concern was that public statements were not consistent and clear with our policies. And frankly, you know, our policies are much stricter than before and probably do not make the Russians very happy. But look, I think it's fine if we have these conversations, I think the discussions are appropriate.
You must be prepared for them. So the chair decided to postpone the potential meeting here in the United States that he talked about. That 's, you know, it' s appropriate because I guess we 'd not be ready to have these discussions. So, let's be ready. Look, I have supported talking to North Korea as long as we were prepared. So, of course, we should talk to them.
We are two major superpowers, we have a lot of nuclear weapons at our disposal. We have to talk. But let's be clear, because if you are going to end up with a better relationship, it will only happen by being consistent and clear, and being specific about the real issues that exist between us.
CHUCK TODD:
You asked, I thought, a very important question to Secretary Pompeo when you said, "How come sections do not seem to work? This has not changed the behavior of Russia. You want more sanctions. Why do you think that did not work? Is this the President's rhetoric?
SEN. ROB PORTMAN:
Well, it's a great question because we have unprecedented levels of sanctions, certainly since the cold war and we're talking about increasing them, which I support. But my question was very simple: you know, they did not back down because of the illegal annexation of Crimea, they did not back away with regard to what they do on the eastern border of Ukraine. It's a hot war, Chuck, as you know. The losses every week on the Ukrainian side.
They did not back down in terms of support for the murderous regime of Assad. Are the sanctions effective or not? Now, some will say that they have been effective in attracting the attention of the Kremlin, but they have obviously not resulted in the kind of actions and reactions we expected.
My question is: how can we be more effective and more targeted in sanctions? Et mon sentiment est, Chuck, que la meilleure façon d'aborder cela est de s'en prendre à des gens en Russie qui sont influents – y compris certains des oligarques qui soutiennent le président Poutine et vraiment d'être plus efficaces pour cibler ces sanctions. Mais je suis intéressé de recevoir une réponse du secrétaire pour ma question.
CHUCK TODD:
Permettez-moi de vous demander, je vais passer à la Cour suprême. Je sais que nous allons commencer le processus de confirmation. On se bat un peu pour savoir quels documents dans les archives devraient être là. Démocrates croient que les républicains demandent un montant limité, en regardant seulement le temps de Brett Kavanaugh au bureau de l'avocat de la Maison Blanche. Depuis que Brett Kavanaugh lui-même a parlé de son poste de secrétaire du personnel à la Maison-Blanche, c'est aussi important. La réponse ne devrait-elle pas être la publication de tous les documents de son temps dans l'administration Bush?
SEN. ROB PORTMAN:
Eh bien, vous savez, j'ai servi avec Brett dans l'administration Bush. Au fait, mec incroyable. Humble, un bon auditeur, compatissant. Je pense qu'il va très bien à l'audience. Et comme vous l'avez probablement vu dans certains de ces sondages dans ces états qui sont des états rouges où vous avez un sénateur démocrate, il est très populaire. Les gens veulent le voir confirmé. Donc je pense qu'à la fin il va très bien faire.
Pour ce qui est de la question de la production de documents, il devrait s'agir de documents pertinents. En d'autres termes, lorsque vous êtes secrétaire du personnel, quel était son travail, il y a des millions de documents, littéralement, qui passent par votre bureau. Vous êtes le gardien, vous êtes le policier de la circulation. Ce n'est pas important. Donc, je pense que lorsqu'il était conseiller adjoint du président, certainement ses 200 opinions, évidemment, c'est très important. Donc, ce sont les documents pertinents.
Mais Chuck, faire une expédition de pêche dans des millions de documents qu'il n'avait rien de substantiel à dire à propos de ce que je pense serait une erreur. Et franchement, je pense que ce n'est pas forcément dans l'intérêt des démocrates de le faire parce que cela va retarder encore plus les élections, ce dont je ne suis pas sûr qu'ils veulent.
CHUCK TODD:
D'accord. Rob Portman, sénateur républicain de l'Ohio. Je vais devoir le laisser là. Merci d'être venu et de partager vos opinions, monsieur. Très appréciée.
SEN. ROB PORTMAN:
Merci, Chuck. Merci de m'avoir à nouveau.
CHUCK TODD:
Quand nous reviendrons, le panel sur ce que la rupture de la relation Trump / Cohen pourrait signifier pour l'enquête russe et l'avenir de la présidence Trump. Et il se trouve qu'un autre employé du président Trump peut constituer une menace encore plus grande pour le président.
CHUCK TODD: Bienvenue à nouveau. Le panneau est ici. Eddie Glaude Jr., président du Centre for African American Studies de l'Université de Princeton. Peggy Noonan, éditorialiste du Wall Street Journal et analyste politique de NBC News. Andrea Mitchell, correspondant en chef des affaires étrangères de NBC News, célèbre cette semaine ses 40 ans à NBC News. Et Matthew Continetti, rédacteur en chef du Washington Free Beacon. Bienvenue à tous. Laissez-moi mettre en place le tweet du président à propos de Michael Cohen et la réponse à la chose Trump Tower. C'était essentiellement à propos de sa seule réponse qu'il a donnée. "Je ne connaissais pas la rencontre avec mon fils Don Jr. Ça me semble que quelqu'un essaie de raconter des histoires pour se sortir d'une confiture sans aucun rapport.Par exemple, il a même retenu les services de Bill et de l'avocat de Hillary. , Je me demande s'ils l'ont aidé à faire le choix. " Cohen contre Trump. Peggy Noonan, que faites-vous de cela?
PEGGY NOONAN: Je pensais que c'était très intéressant quand vous avez dit à Sam Nunberg, "Alors, qui dit la vérité ici?" Je pense que sa réponse était plus ou moins, "Je pense que Trump." Tu vois ce que je veux dire? Cela pourrait-il être juste …
CHUCK TODD: Il y avait …
PEGGY NOONAN: – interprétation?
CHUCK TODD: C'était comme s'il avait mis beaucoup de réserves là-dedans. Il semblait qu'il y avait beaucoup de "Eh bien, sur ce point." Yeah.
PEGGY NOONAN: Une des choses qui m'intéresse est de savoir où cela va. You have a sense as you watch the story that more tapes will come, more testimony, more of this, email, whatever and we'll find out, yes, the president kind of knew about the Trump Tower meeting. Someone wanted to share information against Hillary Clinton. He says, "Sure, let me know how it goes." If that is true, where does that get you? What is our endpoint there? That doesn't prove criminality. It proves poor judgment. It proves a lack of sophistication within his campaign organization. Normally, these Russians would come in off the street and they'd meet with extremely low-level people.
CHUCK TODD: These guys got right–
PEGGY NOONAN: Not top-level people. Oh my gosh. You know, it's out of a Daniel Silva novel it's so unsophisticated.
(LAUGHTER)
ANDREA MITCHELL: That's high praise.
PEGGY NOONAN: What I keep– yeah, it is high praise. But that's what I keep thinking of it as. But still, if the moment comes when we find out Trump knew about this meeting, what does that mean?
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.: Well, you know, first of all, we've heard this kind of denial, right? So on Air Force One when he denied the payment to Stormy Daniels and then Giuliani comes out and we realize he's lying. I mean, so he lies a lot, Donald Trump. So to ask, "Who's telling the truth?" between Cohen and Trump is like asking, "Who's the more trustworthy in the mob?" Right? Sammy the Bull or this guy. I mean, that's not really the issue. The issue is the evidence, right? That's the question. The evidence. What is being put on the table here? And what I think Cohen's tape reveals is intent. And the difficult part about the collusion claim is the intent claim. And if there's intent here, which I think the tape suggests, then we have a stronger case around collusion.
CHUCK TODD: I talked to a few Republicans this week who the combination of the disastrous Helsinki summit with this news, Matthew, is starting to make Capitol Hill Republicans very nervous. I'm sorry. Senator Portman, he didn't like those Michael Cohen questions. He didn't want to–
MATTHEW CONTINETTI: He wanted to move on.
CHUCK TODD: He didn't want to have anything–
(OVERTALK)
MATTHEW CONTINETTI: –more substantive issues.
CHUCK TODD: –to say. And there are a lot of other Republican senators. They don't seem to be as ready to just take the president's side as they were even two weeks ago.
MATTHEW CONTINETTI: They, like the Trump administration, would rather Robert Mueller go away. And I think Cohen's claim that the president knew about the Trump Tower meeting is basically a message to Robert Mueller and saying that, "This claim, given the evidence," if he has any, which he has not produced to date, "would help you, Robert Mueller, in your construction of an obstruction of justice case against the president." And that's where it seems to me the Mueller investigation has been trending for some time. This would be another bullet point in that eventual report to Congress where Robert Mueller would say, "Yes, the president interfered with this investigation."
ANDREA MITCHELL: But from what we know of Robert Mueller, he either has evidence already to corroborate this. He will not be relying on Michael Cohen as a key witness. One has to think that a lot of people– people including in the Trump orbit say, "Look. This meeting took place one floor in Trump Tower away from where the president was at that time, that Candidate Trump was that day at that time. He then went to a fundraising lunch with Don Jr." The possibility, the probability that the son did not tell the father before or after this meeting or both is just so hard to believe. Plus, the two blocked phone calls, one before, one after, that the Republicans on the House Intel Committee would not let the Democrats subpoena. So Mueller either has those phone records and a lot of other corroborating information or not. If this is going to go anyplace, it's not going to rely on Michael Cohen.
CHUCK TODD: Go ahead.
PEGGY NOONAN: Just a small thought. In a funny way I think the Cohen stuff, and the meeting, and the payoffs, check or cash for the Playboy person, that has had a funny way of obscuring the really big story of the moment, which was Helsinki, a two-hour meeting about which we know nothing. No American–
ANDREA MITCHELL: Exactly.
PEGGY NOONAN: –note takers. And then an obsequious, and fawning, for me as an American to watch embarrassing joint press conference with President Putin. That is huge, historic–
ANDREA MITCHELL: And–
PEGGY NOONAN: –and scandalous.
CHUCK TODD: What about the Mike Pompeo–
CHUCK TODD: –hearing after? I was surprised that Senator Portman thought that Secretary Pompeo did so well.
ANDREA MITCHELL: In fact, for three hours almost unanimously the members, Republican and Democratic, and not just Bob Corker, who's retiring, went after Pompeo not on a personal level but because he was giving the party line pretty much and not explaining what happened in that two-hour meeting. And their fear is that he does not know, that Mattis does not know, that no one knows what happened. And they are saying, "Do not–" and that's what the leaders said to the president when they went and got him to postpone the return visit right before the midterms. They do not want him going into another private meeting. First of all, no president, especially one as unschooled in foreign policy. The Kremlin is putting out that he agreed to a referendum on Ukraine. The Kremlin is giving us the readout, and we don't know what to–
CHUCK TODD: Look, I thought Susan Glasser put it well, Matthew, in this. And she goes, "For hours, Pompeo had insisted that Trump's tweets and incendiary comments were not the sum total of those policies. But it's a tough argument to make about a prickly boss. The policy has not changed Pompeo insisted. But the real question remains what the policy is in the first place."
PEGGY NOONAN: Yes.
MATTHEW CONTINETTI: Right. And in this sense actually the Michael Cohen news came as a relief I think–
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.: Correct.
MATTHEW CONTINETTI: –to a lot of Republicans. Because (UNINTEL) the case that when the spotlight is on Russia, when the spotlight is on Michael Avenatti and Stormy Daniels, the president's base rallies to him. And I was struck by the week that Donald Trump was elected president, his personal favorability rating according to Gallup was 36%. Last month Gallup asked the same question. Donald Trump's personal favorability rating was 36%. Nothing changed.
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.: Wow.
CHUCK TODD: That's what I always say about every week. Everything happens, and nothing changes. I'm going to pause the conversation here. When we come back, the curious case of a woman named Maria Butina. Was she a Russian spy? And could she be the key to a connection between the Russians infiltrating the NRA?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. It sounds like something ripped from a spy movie or a reboot of The Americans: A young Russian woman accused of conspiring to influence American conservative politics on behalf of Russian intelligence. Twenty-nine-year-old Maria Butina was arrested last weekend in Washington where she had recently graduated with a Master's degree in international relations from American University. On paper, she was a student and a gun rights advocate, known around campus for having pride in her homeland and defending Russian interests in class discussions. At the same time, investigators claim she was a covert agent funded by Alexander Torshin, a Russian oligarch with close ties to the Kremlin. And at his urging, investigators say, she worked to gain access to American political operatives, conservative politicians and political groups, including the Trump campaign, and more importantly in this story, the N.R.A. Well, joining me now is someone who has done a lot of reporting on Butina and Russian intelligence efforts in this area. It's Michael Isikoff, he’s the chief investigative correspondent for Yahoo! News, co-author of the book, Russian Roulette, and of course, a former colleague here at NBC News. Michael, welcome back to Meet the Press–
MICHAEL ISIKOFF:
Good to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. You are Facebook friends with Maria Butina.
MICHAEL ISIKOFF:
It’s true.
CHUCK TODD:
I, I know you did it for your reporting– so how did you first discover her?
MICHAEL ISIKOFF:
I started hearing about her in – during the 2016 election as somebody who kept showing up at conservative political events, CPAC conferences, national prayer breakfasts, N.R.A. meetings, conventions. She met with N.R.A. leaders when they went to Moscow and hosted them. And it struck a lot of people as odd, "What is this woman doing here?" She was extremely flirtatious, she tried to maintain contact with a lot of influential Republican lobbyists, activists.
She had this very close relationship with this guy, Paul Erickson, conservative activist in South Dakota. But what really got my attention was the Alexander Torshin connection. Alexander Torshin, who you mentioned, is, was a deputy governor of the Russian Central Bank, he was a close ally of Putin. And most importantly, he was under investigation by the Spanish National Police for money laundering. In fact, he had these ties to this organized crime money laundering gang in Spain. The Spanish National Police had him on wiretaps–
CHUCK TODD:
He was getting arrested, right? They came to the country–
MICHAEL ISIKOFF:
They were planning to arrest him. He was referred to by the organized gang leader as El Padrino, the Godfather. And they were all set to arrest him when he was going to fly into Majorca for a birthday party. He got tipped off and didn't go. But all this time he's flying in and out of the United States with Butina, meeting with N.R.A. leaders and Republican activists.
CHUCK TODD:
So in the criminal complaint against her when they (UNINTEL PHRASE) because they thought she was going to flee, I want to read this email – it’s a bit, it’s a – it’s a bit. It's some rough English, but it's in her words. It's an email that they put in there that essentially explains, I guess, what her plan was. It says here that they’ve – she has discovered the central place and influence– and they refer in the criminal complaint political party one, meaning the Republicans– plays the gun rights organization here as N.R.A. The N.R.A. is the largest sponsor of the elections in Congress, as well as as sponsor of the CPAC conference and other events. Again, a little bit of broken English there from her. But this was all part of this plan. It was an email she sent, apparently, to Paul Erickson. This was a whole infiltration plan.
MICHAEL ISIKOFF:
Exactly. And that was a very savvy insight. The way – the goal here was to change the Republican Party's attitude towards Russia. Traditionally hostile, they wanted (UNINTEL PHRASE)–
CHUCK TODD:
Right. There was sort of the John McCain view of Russia is what they assumed all Republicans were (UNINTEL PHRASE)–
MICHAEL ISIKOFF:
And the way to do it was through the N.R.A. Who has more influence with Republican members of Congress especially than the N.R.A.? They spend more money, they're the most powerful special interest group. So the idea was Butina sets up this Russian gun rights organization to forge this alliance with N.R.A. members, as a way of influencing the Republican party.
CHUCK TODD:
Let's go back to Paul Erickson. Paul Erickson, she's been now romantically linked with him, I guess they lived together in South Dakota perhaps, or they shared some sort of–
MICHAEL ISIKOFF:
Apparently not totally willingly on her part, but she felt this was part of her obligation and duty–
CHUCK TODD:
I guess she wrote this email to him at the time to sort of like ask him, you know, "Am I wording this correctly?" It was sort of to get his – is he witting or unwitting here?
MICHAEL ISIKOFF:
Well, we don't know. There’s good reason to believe he's under investigation himself by federal prosecutors, and I think one goal is to get her to flip on him about what he might know. But I do think Torshin is the – is the key. I think he's the ultimate target here, he's been sanctioned by the U.S. One other thing we should mention, remember, Butina for all the work she's doing did one big service for the Kremlin. July 2015, just a few week after Trump announces his candidacy, he goes to Freedom Fest, this Libertarian event in Las Vegas, and takes a question from the floor, from Butina.
What would be his position on sanctions that would – that are damaging both countries? And Trump gives this full-fledged five-minute answer in which he says, "If I'm elected you won't need sanctions. I know Putin. I can get along with Putin." Not a top issue for the — in the Republican political debate at the time. But very important for the Kremlin, they had him on the record saying he would roll back sanctions.
CHUCK TODD:
Mike, you've been doing investigations a long time, a couple of decades now. Let's raise up to 30,000 feet. You know, we keep, we'll focus sometimes on the Russia/Trump angle, we'll focus on the N.R.A. This, this larger investigation is going to be known as what? It looks to me like a Russian infiltration campaign on all levels of the conservative movement in this country. Is that what happened?
MICHAEL ISIKOFF:
That's, that’s – what, what, exactly what seems to be happening. This was every much as part of the Russian influence campaign as the cyberattacks, as the phony Facebook ads, the Twitter bots, all of that. And I’ve got to say, just sort of one thing that's really —
CHUCK TODD:
I know, you're the hobby horse. I'll let you have it. Go–
MICHAEL ISIKOFF:
Hobby horse, yeah. Dereliction of duty on Congress's part. Why every major political scandal in the last half-century– Watergate, Iran-Contra, you name it– public hearings by the Congress, key witnesses testify under oath before the TV cameras. None of that has happened here; all behind closed doors including Butina, by the way. We should be seeing these witnesses, they should be hauled up. Grassley and Feinstein could call Michael Cohen up tomorrow–
CHUCK TODD:
Tomorrow, absolutely–
MICHAEL ISIKOFF:
–tomorrow! Subpoena him, have him testify in public.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, don't let lawyers spin. Let's see it for ourselves. It's a good point to end on. Michael Isikoff, thanks for coming on.
MICHAEL ISIKOFF:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
Good work, sir. Don't forget his book, Russian Roulette. When we come back the Democrats' big blue Midwestern wall came crashing down on them in 2016. Are we seeing signs that it's being rebuilt?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER:
Meet the Press Data Download, brought to you by Pfizer.
CHUCK TODD:
We are back, Data Download time. President Trump loves to mock the big blue wall that pundits said he could not scale to reach 270 electoral votes in the 2016 election. As we all know, he did. He won in places like Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. President Trump forged a new path to the presidency for Republicans in 2016, albeit a very narrow one. Because he won Michigan by the slimmest of margins, something a Republican hadn't done since 1988. He clinched Wisconsin by less than a percentage point as well, a state that hadn't gone red since 1984. In Minnesota he got well within striking distance, losing the state by less than two points.
No one had gotten that close since Ronald Reagan in 1984. Now, President Trump's success in those midwestern states was fueled by his appeal with rural and working class voters, but now new NBC News Marist polls show him slipping in the Midwest. President Trump's approval rating in those three states, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Minnesota, deep underwater.
He did not break 40% in any of those states, and his disapproval is above 50% in all of them. This could be as much about tariffs, by the way, as it is about his overall job performance. Tariffs are hitting those three states in particularly hard. Of course the president has two more years to make up for those numbers. But the midterm election is just 100 days away and Republicans are facing uphill battles in elections for the House, Senate, and for governor.
In fact, in our poll, voters in each of those states say they prefer Democrats over Republicans in this year's congressional races. And guess what? These states have a lot of big races to watch this fall. They're home to nine Republican-held house seats currently listed as battlegrounds by our friends at the Cook Political Report.
And there are four Senate races, all with Democratic incumbents, one each in Michigan and Wisconsin, and of course two in Minnesota. Plus each state has a governor's race, and right now our polls show support for Democrats in those races as well. So President Trump has traveled to all of these states this year so he knows how important they are.
But right now the numbers suggest Democrats may be rebuilding their big blue wall, at least for the midterms. When we come back, President Trump says he plans to spend six or seven days a week campaigning in the fall. Why that could really help some Republicans and really hurt others.
ANNOUNCER:
Coming up, end game and post-game, brought to you by Boeing. Continuing our mission to connect, protect, explore, and inspire.
ANNOUNCER:
End Game, brought to you by Boeing. Continuing our mission to connect, protect, explore, and inspire.
CHUCK TODD:
Back now with End Game. Believe it or not, it's not still the 2016 election. We are 100 days till 2018. I know we'll be fighting the 2016 election for the rest of our lives at this point. Here is the president about what he says he's going to do in the last 60 days of this election year.
DONALD TRUMP:
I'll go six or seven days a week when we're 60 days out. And I will be campaigning for all of these great people that do have a difficult race.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, Matthew Continetti, all these great people that have the most difficult race. Do you think they want Donald Trump campaigning for them?
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
Well, it depends on where they live. The closer–
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
The closer they are to a city or a suburb, the less likely they are to want the president to come campaign for them. The president, of course, not one to cede the argument to his opponents or to allow them to even voice their criticism. So I think he plans to take a very active role in the midterms, make the argument, as it already is, of the midterms about him. And the truth is that may actually lead to a Republican advantage. Because the big danger for the Republicans is 1) those never-Hillary moderates vote Democrat but 2) the Trump base doesn't show up. And his presence may actually inspire them to vote if he nationalizes–
PEGGY NOONAN:
Good point.
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
–the election.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, we have done a bunch of polls the last 10 days we came out with, Andrea, as you know here. And what's interesting is that it does seem to be this intensity issue on the left and the right. There's a little more intensity on the left. But the Trump intensity is there, too. But the gulf with the middle. Right now, independents look like Democrats.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
They do. And I think the biggest issue could be the tariffs. Because you look at that so-called blue wall that didn't appear, that collapsed for Hillary Clinton, those tariffs are really hurting farmers. Soybeans, prices down. Wheat. And they're going to go to those grain elevators the end of September, beginning of October. And they're going to see those prices.
And other industries around them, John Deere and others, they're all going to be affected by this. And I just was interviewing, you know, Pat Toomey from Pennsylvania where the tariffs started, just to win that special election. Steel and aluminum. And he said, "We've got so many more manufacturing jobs that rely on the price of steel and aluminum than the steel workers." He's against them, as are other Republican senators.
PEGGY NOONAN:
I just spoke to a government official in South Dakota who said, "We're worried about our farmers here." However, one number we haven't said this morning. 4.1%.
CHUCK TODD:
I said it at the beginning of the show.
PEGGY NOONAN:
All right. At the beginning of the show. But in this conversation here. You know, I know it's only one quarter. We had the last such quarter in 2014. But the White House made the most of it. When people hear 4.1% growth, maybe we're on target for 3% this year. People have a little more money in their pockets. Consumer confidence is up. Taxes are down slightly. When you've got all that, that's going to have an impact, too.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
It's a big bumper sticker.
PEGGY NOONAN:
A general sense apart from tariffs that there's a certain amount of economic push-up that's going on.
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.:
Perhaps. Wages are still flat line. What's interesting to me though is, it's not so much the middle. It's those new voters, right? Those folks that you don't ordinarily count. So you have an excited Democratic base, folks who are motivated because of Trump. And then you have folks that usually don't show up. Usually don't show up to vote. Ocasio-Cortez was interesting not just simply because she was a Democratic socialist. It's who she got to the polls. And we're going to see the same thing in Georgia with Abrams and Kemp. 40% of Georgia is non-white. Many of them don't vote. Her job is to get them out. And I think Trump–
ANDREA MITCHELL:
That's a big job though, getting them out.
CHUCK TODD:
Matthew, I want you to comment on something else. The Cook network. Excuse me. Not the Cook. The Koch network has been having a meeting this weekend. And wow. I want to put up this quote from Brian Hooks. He's president of the Charles Koch Foundation. And he says this. "The divisiveness of this White House is causing long-term damage.”
"When in order to win on an issue someone else has to lose, it makes it very difficult to unite and solve the problems of this country." There was even some hints among some at the Koch network meeting that, "You know what? Maybe this partisan strategy isn't working."
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
Well, the Kochs are philosophical libertarians who are greatly opposed to the tariffs that Andrea Mitchell mentioned as well as to some elements of more hawking Republican foreign policy that Donald Trump embraces. So it wouldn't surprise me that there would be a lot of criticism at this meeting. This argument about the future of the conservative movement, where libertarians fit in, where do social conservatives fit in, where do again those moderate suburban Republicans. The backbone of–
CHUCK TODD:
Are they still Republicans?
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
–the George W. Bush coalition. Right. Are they even still Republicans? These are all questions that are going to be sorted out in the next two years.
PEGGY NOONAN:
Yes. And in the two years beyond that. This is all evolving.
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.:
We'll see how it plays ou t and if the Trump plays the culture war card.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
I don't know if the young people are going to come out, if the new voters that you're talking about are going to come out. And productivity is really flat. That 4.1 is a great number for now. We'll see how it plays out.
CHUCK TODD:
It's a second quarter. And as we all know, those are always the best quarters.
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.:
Exactly.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Finally, before we go, we have a little anniversary to celebrate today. As I mentioned earlier, one of us at this table is celebrating 40 years at NBC News. I'm not going to say who it is, but she's appeared on Meet the Press 211 times, not including today.
GARRICK UTLEY:
And joining me for our interviews, Andrea Mitchell, White House correspondent for NBC News.
TIM RUSSERT:
Andrea Mitchell of NBC News.
CHUCK TODD:
NBC News chief foreign affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Should Clarence Thomas then be willing to take a polygraph test?
Senator, you've said what you're against. What are you for?
With all due respect, gentlemen, there is a perception out there that people in power, particularly in Congress, here in Washington, are a closed club. You have–
REP. MIKE POMPEO:
Miss Mitchell, take a look at the email trails.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
That's just–
REP. MIKE POMPEO:
–and you will see–
ANDREA MITCHELL:
I cover the State Department. That is just factually not correct.
GARRICK UTLEY:
Andrea Mitchell.
TIM RUSSERT:
Andrea Mitchell.
TOM BROKAW:
Andrea Mitchell.
DAVID GREGORY:
Our Andrea Mitchell.
CHUCK TODD:
And Andrea Mitchell.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
If it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
CHUCK TODD:
Andrea Mitchell, 40 years.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Started as a–
CHUCK TODD:
How is it–
ANDREA MITCHELL:
–kid.
CHUCK TODD:
–possible? How is it possible? You started–
ANDREA MITCHELL:
High school reporter.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. I was just going to say. How does it feel?
ANDREA MITCHELL:
This show above all shows, above all programs, is the heart and soul of NBC News. And I have been proudest of appearing here. My folks always watched it. I watched it as a kid through all of our wonderful moderators. And the legacy continues with you.
CHUCK TODD:
Some of the best, most uncomfortable questions you have made male senators– and it's been very interesting now. And I say this. You were asking some questions about the culture before anybody else was doing it.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
The culture has been so toxic lately we forget that we've had previous difficult times here and the resilience of this country and of the news media is extraordinary and profoundly moving. But the fact is that we've got big problems still to solve in our society.
CHUCK TODD:
Which means you're not going anywhere. You've got a lot more stories to report.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
And we've got cake.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
That's all we have for today. We've got some work to do on this cake. Thank you for watching. We'll be back next week. Because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
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