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The following is a transcript of an interview with former FDA Commissioner Scott Gottlieb aired November 1, 2020 on “Face the Nation”.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Now we’ll go to the former FDA commissioner, Dr. Scott Gottlieb, and we want to thank you for being here in person. You have been tested. I have been tested. You are remote, so I hope you approve. Haven’t seen you in person since mid-March, but things haven’t improved. In fact, they seem to be getting worse and accelerating in the rate of infection this week alone. I mean, the numbers are pretty staggering. The president continues to say that we are turning the corner. This is simply not correct.
DR. SCOTT GOTTLIEB: No, things are getting worse across the country. I think Thanksgiving is really going to be an inflection point. I think December will probably be our hardest month. But when you look at what’s going on in the states right now, you see an acceleration in the spread. We’re just at the start of what looks like exponential growth in many states, the Midwest, the Great Lakes region, even states like Texas where you see 6,000 cases, Illinois, 8,000 cases, Florida 5,000. cases, Wisconsin 5,000 cases reported on Friday. These are very disturbing trends. There are currently around 23 states accelerating the spread. Currently, the positivity rate is over 10% in 15 states. And all of the states have an R greater than one, which means they’re currently a growing epidemic. So it’s very worrying as we head into winter.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Actually, it was acknowledged in a fairly candid interview by Dr. Fauci with the Washington Post which posted yes – yesterday. He said neither he nor Dr Birx from the working group had briefed the chair for some time. He said it was because the White House didn’t like the news. They needed a medical message that basically matched what they were saying. It is quite categorical to say that medical information and public health are used for political ends.
DR. GOTTLIEB: Well …
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you agree with that?
DR. GOTTLIEB: Well listen, I think the facts are going to take precedence over any political dialogue very quickly. I think over the next two or three weeks what is going on in the country will be unmistakable. And we’re going to have to start taking some tough action. I don’t think we’re going to lock in like Europe is now. And Europe has a very dense epidemic. There is a very worrying trend going on in Europe. I think we will-
MARGARET BRENNAN: Europe didn’t think it was going to lock down either, and now it is.
DR. GOTTLIEB: That’s right, but I think – I don’t think the political support is there for that, even at the state level. I think you’re going to see targeted mitigation measures. States are taking local action, but we’re going to have to start taking more aggressive action. Probably my point of view is that the inflection point will be Thanksgiving. You’re going to see cases pile up over the next three weeks, and December is definitely going to be the slowest month. But I think what happens then will be unmistakable, and we will be forced to do so, as hospital systems are going to be under pressure again.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Regardless of what happens in this election, the president is still president until at least January. If he wins, he owns it for a second term. What should he focus on?
DR. GOTTLIEB: I think he needs to focus on providing resources to states. They have to deliver a stimulus. They have to provide funds to the states to try to deal with this problem. I think we need to focus on what – what we’re going to prioritize to try to keep things open and make things open after we’ve been through that, especially schools. We’re going to have to support the states that need to take this targeted action, trying to get compliance for things like masks. So I think the bully’s chair is very important. National leaders are trying to galvanize collective action in an attempt to reduce the spread. You are right. Once we get through that over the next couple of months, much of that will happen over the next two months. By the time a president takes office in January, whoever he is, we’ll probably be going through the most acute phase of it – the descent of the epidemic curve. So this is really going to take place under the leadership of the president. What he does over the next two months will be very important.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So Joe Biden, I know you’ve looked at his plan. If he wins, he comes to a time in January where we could be on the downward slope here. What must happen in this period of November, January, whoever the president is? And – and are we in a scenario where Congress – nothing that you say needs to be done, not done? I mean, what does it look like?
DR. GOTTLIEB: Well listen, Joe Biden spoke – the vice president spoke of trying to make testing more accessible to consumers. I think it will be very important. I think at this point we should try to prioritize the opening of schools in late winter or early spring. We’re going to have an opportunity …
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you think schools should close again?
DR. GOTTLIEB: … to do that. I don’t think – I think the schools that are – that are open now could find ways to stay open. I think the schools that are closed right now, we have to prioritize trying to open them. There is now a lot of evidence that schools can be opened safely if they take careful measures. This should be our number one priority. I think when – if Biden were to come in that should be a priority, trying to get targeted resources, proper PPE for teachers, testing in schools that can’t use social distancing, trying to bring in those resources in schools so that schools can open. Also report on the collective experience. If you can post more information on what worked and what didn’t in terms of keeping schools open, it will reassure more districts about openness. This should be a very high priority for this country. Unfortunately, I don’t think this is the case. We talked about it, but we did not take the necessary steps to facilitate it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want you to play a little bit of the sound of what President Trump said at a rally this week.
(START THE CLIP)
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: You know, our doctors get more money if someone dies from COVID. Do you know this is true? I mean, our doctors are very smart people. So what they do is they say, I’m sorry, but, you know, everyone is dying from COVID.
(END OF CLIP)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Looks like the President is saying there is a financial incentive for doctors to manipulate COVID data –
DR. GOTTLIEB: Look, I think …
MARGARET BRENNAN: … or they make money out of it.
DR. GOTTLIEB: – I think it’s troubling to suggest that doctors manipulate the data to try to get higher reimbursement. The CARES law, which the president signed, provides for additional funds, about 20% more for a case of COVID pneumonia than a case of regular pneumonia. The reason is that it is more expensive to care for these patients in hospitals. Hospitals are bleeding money. It was a way of trying to get them more resources. But you have to have COVID and you have to have pneumonia and that has to be documented. Any doctor who documents COVID pneumonia in a case where the patient does not have pneumonia, it is a fraud. Additionally, CMS has implemented measures to try to encourage hospitals to do more testing inside the hospital. The tests that doctors do in hospitals are therefore due to the fact that the government encouraged them to do these tests. But the only extra money is if you – if you got pneumonia and you got COVID. It’s not these patients they are talking about who have another disease and have COVID. There is no additional refund for this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Who do you think told him that?
DR. GOTTLIEB: I think there are – unfortunately, I think there are probably advisers telling him that. I don’t think the chairman is on his own.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It’s so good to see you in person.
DR. GOTTLIEB: Nice to see you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Stay healthy.
DR. GOTTLIEB: Thanks.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we’ll get back to our CBS News election team in a moment. So do not go away.
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