The sociology group "Rating" published data on a study on the attitude of Ukrainians towards various historical figures. The most popular are Bogdan Khmelnitsky, Mikhail Hrushevsky and Ivan Mazepa. And in the fourth place was the general secretary of the Central Committee of the CPSU, Leonid Brezhnev, and the general secretary was more popular than the leader of the OUN, Stepan Bandera.
On the peculiarities of the Ukrainian historical memory and politics of the national memory of Radio Svoboda, has spoken with the director of the Ukrainian Institute of National Memory, Volodymyr Vyatrovich.
– How do you evaluate the results of the survey? Such a high score from Brezhnev – is not this a fiasco of the policy of decommunisation?
About the most famous Trinities – Khmelnytsky, Hrushevsky and Mazepa. Bills are also a popular book in history
– About the most popular Trinidad – Khmelnitsky, Hrushevsky and Mazepa – they have taken such an uncontested place in the Ukrainian national pantheon conditionally. Because these are the people that most Ukrainians see, in particular, meet their portraits on banknotes. Tickets are also a popularizer of history.
Regarding the presence of Leonid Brezhnev among these people, it is a certain atavism or inertia. Because for many Ukrainians, Brezhnev is a person associated with almost 20 years of his life when he was at the head of the Soviet Union.
– But for them, it was probably a beautiful life.
Reform of the figure of Stepan Bandera – this is only the beginning
– Since these are people who tell what happened almost 40 years ago, they were already quite young. And those 20 years of private life may have really arrived at the most interesting and enjoyable moments.
As for Stepan Bandera, he was at the time of the Soviet Union the main anti-hero and remains one of the leading anti-heroes of contemporary Russian propaganda. As a result, the re-examination of Stepan Bandera's figure is just beginning.
A banner with portraits of Prince Kievan Volodymyr the Great, Hetman Ivan Mazepa, leader of OUN Stepan Bandera and bearing the inscription: "Language is a feat of the millennium" during the football game between the national teams of Ukraine and the Czech Republic. Lviv, August 15, 2012
In the same poll that you quoted, there are still some interesting figures regarding the Holodomor: 79% of Ukrainians recognize the Holodomor as a genocide. This, as for me, is a striking example of the already serious achievements of the national politics of national memory. Because the Holodomor, as a theme, was the subject of the national policy of national memory.
– Decommunism was also there.
When it comes to rethinking the communist past, it will take a little more time [19659007] – Yes, but deconcentration has never specifically targeted people like Stepan Bandera. There has not been a large-scale information effort to disseminate information on the UPA and so on. These are the things that remain on the agenda to be made in the future.
Decommunism refers to the removal of certain monuments belonging to the rulers, symbols of the communist past, of the public space. It's practically done. As for the decommunisation, it will take a little more time to rethink the communist past. And in the context of this reflection on the communist past, I am convinced that there will be some social reflection on the role and place of Leonid Brezhnev in our past.
– And yet, since the time of Perestroika, when he began to say that Brezhnev was bad, he had already passed more than 30 years, and they say – and Leonid Ilyich is still popular. How would you explain this phenomenon?
I am skeptical about the popularization of Francis Joseph I, Nicholas II or Brezhnev. All this is rather remnants of colonial thought
– I think it's just nostalgia: for young people, for someone – for calm and steady times.
Because we fully understand that those who had the strength to resist then the Soviet authorities, and therefore fallen under repression, were united. Others were silent and therefore exchanged their freedom for a little stability and calm. And for many people in Ukraine, unfortunately, this exchange of freedom towards illusory stability and calm remains topical.
Brezhnev can only be considered as a typical representative of the colonial administration
– In Western Ukraine, they are trying to popularize the last Austrian Emperor Franz Josef. I. In fact, he was also an elderly man who also had stability and relative prosperity.
– I am skeptical about the popularization of Franz Josef I, Nicholas II or Leonid Brezhnev. All of this is rather remnants of colonial thought and we must get rid of it.
– Brezhnev is only ours – from the Dnipropetrovsk region …
– Absolutely I do not consider Brezhnev like ours. He can be considered the only representative typical of the colonial administration.
– This was a Ukrainian written almost before the late 1940s.
– That does not mean anything at all.
Portraits / images of Leonid Brezhnev and Volodymyr Shcherbytsky on the prominent men's avenue from the Dnieper in the city of Dnipro, 201815 understand, but then such a paradox that I can not understand. You may have won it. Peter I.
In 1991, we did not receive any new people. We continue to work with the same company, which has been actively treated by Soviet propaganda and continues in Russian
– I do not see anything surprising either, given the attention paid to the figure of Peter I Soviet era. In 1991, we did not receive completely new people. We continue to work with the same company, which has been actively treated by Soviet propaganda and continues in Russian.
The myths and stereotypes of the Soviet past are not so simple and do not disappear so quickly. For this reason, for many, the figure of Peter I still remains something important in Ukrainian history. This is particularly visible in the city of Poltava, which has glorious Ukrainian traditions, glorious sons and daughters. But often, especially among ethnographers and tourist guides, the figure of Peter I and all that is related to the Battle of Poltava becomes almost the basis of the identity of the inhabitants of Poltava.
I am convinced that these are the vestiges of colonial thought on which we must also work. This goes beyond the limits of decommunization, but is directly related to issues of national identity, with ideas about the past. Yes, we will work on this subject.
A solemn meeting near the monument of Hetman Ivan Mazepa in memory of freedom fighters. Poltava, November 21, 2016
– Decommunism is successful. For example, according to this survey, the most despicable and disadvantaged personalities are Stalin, Lenin and Gorbachev – communist leaders.
– Here is a relevant example from another country where decononization did not take place – Russia. There, Stalin is becoming a leader in sociological investigations of the past.
– Let's move from communist leaders to their antagonists. Recently, about 20 deputies initiated the return of the title of hero of Ukraine to Stepan Bandera. Why is this question up to date on the eve of elections? In 2010, during the presidential election, Bandera gave the title of hero …
The title of the hero of Ukraine, which we have now, is sufficiently compromised
– L & # One politician who raises this question sees a certain electoral potential. I am skeptical about this. Because I believe that the title of hero of Ukraine, that we have now, is sufficiently compromised. I will not name the specific names of people, but among them are those who are still ready to fight against Ukraine. Therefore, I do not think that the reallocation of this title to Stepan Bandera would add anything to the understanding of his image.
For me, Bandera is truly a national hero. He is a typical revolutionary of the enslaved people, one of the leaders of the liberation movement, close to leaders such as Jozef Pilsudski, Menachem Begin, Michael Collins … I do not think that to recognize him as such, he needs an official title and, in my opinion, compromises. . It seems to me that it is more important to focus on historians and society in order to make known the outstanding personality of our past.
Monument The OUN leader, Stepan Bandera, in Ivano-Frankivsk, August 10, 2018
– And in general, the idea of giving the title of hero of Ukraine to characters who are already the property of history?
– I find that it is appropriate to create a new title – without compromise, which should constitute the highest recognition of the merits of one or the other person in Ukrainian history and in our time. Obviously, when personalities like Bandera or Stus indicate that people are far removed from these people, this will have a negative impact on the assessment of indisputably distinguished individuals.
– And, in a general way, is it worth while to evaluate historical personalities in this way
It is also worthwhile to resume discussions on the creation of historical objects. a national pantheon – the reburial of a large part of those who are buried outside of Ukraine
– In fact, it is also a strange idea, because then we will have to proceed a complete revision of Ukrainian history, in order to reward: we the Order "For the Merit" Order of Yaroslav someone a wise – Yaroslav the Wise or someone else . When we talk about the rewards system, we must first use it for our contemporaries. If it is necessary to organize a posthumous celebration of those who died or who died before the proclamation of the independence of Ukraine, it is worth thinking about a distinct celebration mode .
– Monument, commemorative plaque …
– Yes. It is also useful to resume discussions on the creation of a national pantheon – the reburial of a significant portion of those buried outside of Ukraine.
– A lecture by the famous historian Sergiy Plokhia was recently opened. The conference was devoted to "Leninabad" – the wave of reversal of Lenin's monuments with pedestals. Plohy, referring to sociological research, said that Ukrainians generally treated Leninabad in general, but that instead of Lenin, they generally did not want to see Bandera. So, what to do now with free pedestals?
There should be no universal solution for placing Shevchenko or any other character in Lenin's place
– All your options are entitled to life. I am convinced that there should be no universal solution to place Shevchenko or another character in Lenin's place. The universal decision that this place must necessarily be occupied by a monument is just as false. Sometimes, sometimes, no
As an idea, I like to do a group of sculptures on the site of a monument to Lenin destroyed in Kiev on the basis of what was left now, which is conventionally called monument to Leninabad – the event that essentially triggered the decommunization in Ukraine
Reversal of the monument of Lenin in Kiev during the Revolution of Dignity, December 8, 2013
In some places, I am convinced, no monument on this site is necessary. Lenin's shadow on the place to be for a long time to dominate. And whatever they put there, people will remember that there was a monument to Lenin before. But this solution can not be universal either. Because sometimes in the settlements, this is where Lenin was – this is the only place where you can place a monument. It is therefore wrong to declare that it is forbidden to occupy this place.
Demolition of the monument to Lenin in Kharkov on September 29, 2014
] National memory must be intimately linked at local and local level
The fact that these stands are empty is a challenge and a good opportunity for the Ukrainians to start a discussion which, for them, is important in the past and deserves such a memory, to embody in certain groups of sculptures, in monuments.
This is a discussion We need. And the result of this discussion will be monuments for both national and local heroes. You need one and two. National memory must be closely linked at the local level, at the local level.
The Revolution of Dignity. Kiev, Maydan Nezalezhnosti, February 19, 2014
– We already have a very heated debate on the fact that the Chamber of Independence Trade Unions is opening for the second time a kind of catering center. There are two points of view. Some say that it is unacceptable to eat where people are dead. Instead, they deny that the House of Trade Unions does not belong to the state and, to find ways to restore it, it is necessary to rent the premises.
– On November 21, a man who designed to open a cafe and slogan on some kind of roast deserves the prize of the biggest idiot among marketers. Because it was necessary to think the same thing that day – we had to be very tense with our brains.
It should be understood that this building is privately owned.
– This is the property of the Federation of Trade Unions.
– But we do not have a concept of union ownership, it is in fact a private property. We must pay tribute to the unions. Some of these premises, small enough – several tens of meters, were transferred to create an information center and exhibition of the Museum of the Revolution of Dignity. And it already works on two floors. You can find information on the Maidan and in this house at this time. It's really about their goodwill.
If we allow ourselves to forget what happened the Maidan, the likelihood of recurrence or revenge will increase much more
I think in this building a certain memorial can be combined with commercial parties, which in one way or another, considering the location of this building and the right of the owners to perform such works. But it is obvious that this should not be done in such a scandalous and brutal manner as what we tried to do on November 21st.
– Five years after EuroMaydan, who had burst into the Revolution of Dignity and many unleashed ideas to make him immortal. And what do you think, after five years, of this need or maybe let the descendants give an estimate?
Preserving the memory of the Maidan is one of the priorities
– I am clearly convinced that it must be immortalized – and for us and for the descendants. Because these events are very important, they have really changed the course of development of our country. And on how we will remember, the Maidan will depend on what the country will be. If we allow ourselves to forget the Maidan, which happened the Maidan, if we allow ourselves to forget the hundreds of guys who perished, then the probability of a recurrence or from a revenge will increase much more than there was even material things that would be about this is a reminder.
For this reason, for me, as head of the Maidan National Commemoration Institute, one of the priority directions. In this context, we have implemented a very large project, "First Independence Square", in which more than 1200 interviews were recorded throughout Ukraine. In this project, we develop the creation of the Museum of the Revolution of Dignity and the memorial to the heroes of the heavenly hundred. The museum will be built directly on the Heroes' Lane of the Heavenly Hundred, near the Palace of October. The memorial will be erected on the heroes' alley of the Heavenly Hundred, to the place where they were most killed. And this memory is necessary so that we can never return to the low level at which Ukraine fell in 2014.
– And you do not suppose that the descendants can have another evaluation of those
– It is obvious that descendants will be able to more easily evaluate these events from a longer distance. But in one way or another, the level of knowledge we have, both among participants and contemporaries of these events, is always higher than that of the descendants.
