"With Merz, it could be more difficult"

Robert Habeck received us the day after the great earthquake, after the resignation of Angela Merkel to another candidacy at the head of the CDU, at the headquarters of the Green Party in Berlin-Mitte. Habeck's co-chair Annalena Baerbock has the rustic table where we sit.

Mr Habeck, Angela Merkel surprised her party by renouncing a new candidacy for the presidency of the CDU. Is it more luck or more risk for Germany?

Habeck That Mrs Merkel makes the way free, I find very respectable. Now the union is facing a real decision-making decision, which is also a vote on Merkel's policy.

Is power, that is, the division of the CDU presidency and chancery, really divisible by 2021?

Habeck With the separation of functions and mandate, the Greens know us well. It is quite possible to keep the party presidency and the Federal Chancellery in four hands. But the fact that it is a chance or not depends largely on who shares the power with Ms Merkel until in 2021. With Ms Kramp-Karrenbauer, this is certainly easier; with Friedrich Merz or Jens Spahn, it could be more difficult.

Can Horst Seehofer hold a post?

Habeck My opinion was and is that Horst Seehofer as Federal Minister of the Interior is the wrong one, as he exposed the party's tactics to the office. In this regard, I think it's just that Horst Seehofer resigns from his position as Federal Minister of the Interior …

… also as a CSU boss …?

Habeck … if Mrs Merkel's decision to entrust the presidency of the CDU also has an influence on the president of the CSU, that is to say that the UHC must be clarified. Horst Seehofer was not the only one to have destabilized and weakened the government. It was already a joint effort of several actors, each pursuing his own agenda.

With whom would the greens be better: Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer or Friedrich Merz?

Habeck For us, the question is what can a policy look like that will bring about the necessary radical changes. We are a constructive opposition: we do not just complain, we work conceptually.

Could the Greens imagine a Jamaican coalition led by Chancellor Friedrich Merz?

Habeck It's too much for me "and so" and too much global speculation. You should also not be so transfigured Jamaica. This would have required a great deal all the year 2017. Since then, a year has been lost. It has gone unused, see climate crisis, see diesel crisis, see Europe. I expect the incumbent government to reorganize its membership and content, turn to the country and begin to govern. The year 2018 was a lost year. This lost year must be compensated.

They said that the lost year had to be overtaken. Does this mean that the coal output will not only have a production capacity of seven gigawatts, but also eight or ten on the power grid?

Habeck The seven gigawatts are not an end in themselves. The fact is that coal contributes to the achievement of climate protection goals. He had zero last year. So the job has to get bigger now. The Groko pushes the decisions ahead of him and the mountain becomes steeper and steeper. This is not a wise policy.

How do you explain the decline of popular parties?

Habeck The CDU, the CSU and the SPD are so concerned about themselves that they barely have the chance to see how people outside their party's headquarters see them – the case of Mabaden showed it. Everything is focused on it: how can we resolve the dispute between us three?

This includes the unexplained diesel dispute?

Habeck The federal government is too close to the auto industry. Alexander Dobrindt and Andreas Scheuer speak as if they were spokespersons for the press. With this set of behaviors, the federal government is endangering the industrial core of Germany. It is in the interest of the industry itself that the policy sets a clear framework and indicates how to switch to zero emission cars. Enough companies, many providers for example, expect it. The industry will only be able to compete internationally and secure jobs only if it knows where it is going. Then, it can become again an engine of innovation. In addition, people feel the injustice when consumers are cheated, but the management realizes billions of profits. Or if artisans, bakers and citizens pay their taxes, but not Google and Facebook. At the same time, politics has the power to ensure equity.

The Greens meet in ten days for the congress of their European party. What about Europe?

Habeck Europe is the answer to many problems that overwhelm the nation-state. The different states are engaging in international Internet companies altogether. But Europe can keep its power. That's why we want a European digital tax based on sales. The companies would then participate in the financing of our schools, kindergartens, buses and trains. Or a European Competition Bureau and a tighter antitrust law, so that Facebook's superiority over our most private data can be broken. Then you can divide Facebook, which also includes WhatsApp and Instagram. And we must not deceive ourselves: the next banking crisis can occur at any time. Then, it is not necessary that it is again so that the citizens with the money of their taxes must again save the banks. The banks themselves must be responsible for their borrowing – thanks to higher deposit insurance and a much higher capital ratio. This too must be regulated by Europe. It's never too late in politics. The mode of existence of politics is always "five to twelve", never "five to twelve". You can always change something, but we need more determination for all of this.

Why do the Greens no longer want, today, to be satisfied with the Ökopartei label?

Habeck The protection of the environment and the climate is at the top of our priorities. But we do not focus only on what other parties do not cover. We see our specific green agenda elements – the ecological crisis, climate change, species extinction – embedded in the general social context …

… as would a popular party.

Habeck But with a different logic behind. We aspire to think about the future while having a significant impact on society. We think of the goal: how can we prevent the extinction of species from here 20 years without degrading our animals into raw material suppliers? If a different agriculture requires a different industrial policy, we must align the entire policy with this objective. And we pragmatically establish a social alliance for each goal.

SPD leader Nahles has identified the Greens as his main competitor. What happened to two former allies, as opponents?

Habeck I see it differently. There has always been competition between parties. However, something has changed in recent decades: today we have a line of political conflict that is fixed on the question: am I liberal or illiberal, am I nationalist or pro-European? And for this matter, the parties need a clear attitude.

Can you formulate that even more specifically?

Habeck It was very visible in Bavaria and Hesse. Many people wanted to know if you were defending a European Union characterized by the opening of borders between the Member States. Tens of thousands of people took to the streets against the Bavarian Police Act, which intervenes too much in freedom and brings too little security. We were very clearly positioned on these issues and I think that's why we got this broad acceptance. And maybe because people see that the changes – the climate crisis, digitization – are so radical that they need very basic answers, which are then implemented in a pragmatic way. What was a contradiction is today.

In Hesse, black and green can continue to rule with a narrow margin. Is it a model for the federal government?

Habeck The formation of the Hesse government is still pending. But it should be noted that the old majority has been defended. Otherwise, governments were largely excluded in the last elections. For state and federal elections, all parties must formulate their offers with as much precision and confidence as possible – knowing that alliances can then emerge that make compromises necessary. Judging by the old world, where there were solid blocks left and right, it's confusing at first. And yet it is an badet. The voting behavior also changes. Hey, people change their minds! You choose the Greens, sometimes the SPD, the FDP or the Union. And suddenly, it is more profitable for us politicians to approach people with pbadion. This is called democracy.