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The following is a transcript of an interview with Dr. Anthony Fauci aired Sunday August 1, 2021 on “Face the Nation”.
JOHN DICKERSON: Mark Strassmann, thank you. We now go to President Biden’s chief medical adviser, Dr. Anthony Fauci. Hello, Dr Fauci.
CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISOR TO PRESIDENT BIDEN DR. ANTHONY FAUCI: Hello, JEAN.
JOHN DICKERSON: I’d like to start with the new thinking on COVID-19 that was part of the CDC’s decision to change its mask guidelines. We’ve been talking about the Delta variant for a while. But what is new in your understanding of the Delta variant this week?
DR. FAUCI: Well, a confirmation of how easily it spreads from person to person, but we also found that people who get breakthrough infections, namely people who have been vaccinated, who could be infected, almost invariably have minimal or no symptoms. . But since no vaccine is 100% effective, you will see revolutionary infections. But what we’ve learned again, JOHN, in response to your question is that when you look at the level of the virus in the nasopharynx of people who are vaccinated, who get infectious infections, it’s really quite high and equivalent to the level of virus in the nasopharynx of unvaccinated people who are infected. It’s very different from the Alpha variant. The Alpha variant virus level in a vaccinated person was extremely low compared to vaccinated people compared to unvaccinated people. This is not the case with Delta. So we now know that vaccinated people who contract virus infections can pass the virus on to other people.
JOHN DICKERSON: On this point, we’ve always known it isn’t 100% effective when you’re vaccinated. So among the breakthrough cases that we always knew would occur, in every breakthrough case, is it true that the propagation capacity is high or is it a smaller subset of the breakthrough case in which this discovery was made regarding the propagation capacity?
DR. FAUCI: Well, the propagation capacity phenomenon is clear. We see it very, very clearly in a number of situations. When you look at the data that we’ve got from a single study so far, and more studies are underway, you have variability. But the average, the type of medium or medium level of virus in the nasopharynx is really quite similar, almost identical on average. So you would think, obviously, that when you have biological variability, you’re going to have some high people, some low people, some people in the middle. But the median or the mean will be right there, which is very similar to the unvaccinated individual, which is annoying, which tells you that the potential for transmission is there.
JOHN DICKERSON: And that’s why the mask advice for those who have been vaccinated before, because there are those cases where it is possible to spread.
DR. FAUCI: Right. I mean, the situation is if you get breakthrough infections from vaccinated people and they don’t spread to anyone else, you don’t worry if they go home to a vulnerable person in the household. , children or an elderly person, they would not be a problem. But since we now know that, A, they can pass on when they get breakthrough infections, even if they have minimal symptoms or no symptoms, we know they can. We know the mechanical reason is that the virus level is high. So you want to make sure that they are not infected. And that’s the reason why. And the fundamental basis that the CDC amends its guidelines and says, now, if you’re in an area with a high or substantial virus level, which is a red and orange area, you – when you’re in an indoor public place, you need to wear a mask. This is the fundamental reason for this change.
JOHN DICKERSON: And so people who say, I don’t want to wear a mask, it’s my personal decision, that’s how they see it. As you can see, what decision do they make by not wearing a mask?
DR. FAUCI: Well, one of the issues that – that looms large, JOHN, when you deal with this, is that you understand the feeling of people that they have the individual right to make their own decision. And I respect that for sure. But the problem is, if you’re going to be part of the chain of transmission to someone else, then your decision impacts someone else. It doesn’t just affect you. And you have to think about it, that you are a member of society and that you have a responsibility.
JOHN DICKERSON: Let me ask you about the context here. In the CDC document, there was a phrase, someone wrote, “the war has changed” based on these new findings. But isn’t the war essentially the same as it used to be i.e. there are pockets of the country where there aren’t people getting vaccinated as much as they are? should be. And that’s the big deal. And that hasn’t changed at all this week, despite what we’ve just been talking about for four minutes.
DR. FAUCI: You are absolutely right. We have 100 million people in this country, JOHN, who are eligible to be vaccinated, who are not vaccinated. We really need to get these people to change their minds, make it easier for them, convince them, do something to get them vaccinated because they are the ones who are spreading this epidemic. So you are absolutely right. It hasn’t changed. What amplified the problem, JOHN, is that we are now dealing with a virus that has an extraordinary ability to spread from person to person. So when you stack up on top of each other, you have a very difficult situation, a breeding ground for unvaccinated people, and a virus that spreads very efficiently.
JOHN DICKERSON: Looking at the Massachusetts study – the Provincetown study that was part of that mask advice, we talked about the ability to transmit among those who are already vaccinated. But it looks like the story of this study could also be the work of vaccines.
DR. FAUCI: Oh, absolutely. I mean, it’s understandable that there could be sort of a double or mixed message from this study, but the overwhelming message is that if you’re vaccinated and you get a breakthrough infection, first of all, if you’re vaccinated you are much, much more protected against infection than an unvaccinated one who is completely vulnerable. So you have a certain degree of protection against infections. But the critical problem, JOHN, is that if you are infected, the likelihood of you having a serious outcome from the infection is very low. You are much more likely to be either symptom-free or not symptomatic. So the vaccine does what you want it to do. It is to protect people from disease.
JOHN DICKERSON: There seems to be some evidence that the message is getting across. The total number of newly vaccinated people reported in the past seven days is the highest since the week of July 4. In areas with low vaccination, the vaccination rate is high. What do you think is a result? Why is this happening? And then, B, when do we think we’ll see the dividends from these vaccinations?
DR. FAUCI: Well, I think this is happening for two reasons. I think, first of all, we strive to make sure that people can get vaccinated as easily as possible using trusted messengers. But I think when people realize and look around and see that in the area where they live, the virus and infection escalates significantly compared to areas where the vaccination level is high. So that’s kind of common sense. But I’m also happy to see that even people who were reluctant to promote immunization in the beginning are now doing so. I mean, people like Republicans like Stephen Scalise or even Governor DeSantis are talking about getting people vaccinated. Asa Hutchinson over there beating the bushes, getting people vaccinated. I think that’s what’s happening now.
JOHN DICKERSON: All right, Dr Fauci, thank you very much for being with us and helping us figure this out. We appreciate that. We’ll be back in a minute. Stay with us.
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