Mourão: "Bolsonaro and I are complementary" | Brazil

P. You said you would not be a decorative vice-president. What is your job?

R. The role of the vice president is very particular in Brazil, it is a bulwark of democracy. Why do I say that it is the bulwark of democracy? Because if each time the president had to leave the country, if there was no vice president, the president of the Chamber of Deputies would be in his place. And that changes every two years. The vice-president ensures the continuity of the government's thinking. I think it's important The other thing is that I'm here to advise the President on any issues that he deems necessary and to be a companion, a friend, and a friend. He can share his worries and his afflictions.

P . And did he often look for it?

R . Yes, he seeks me if necessary.

P. You were a military attache in Venezuela. You are familiar with this military establishment. Now, they support President Nicolás Maduro, but do you think they will continue to support him? And for how long?

R . What is happening is that the Venezuelan army has become so involved in Bolivarianism that today it is a little difficult to deviate from this. But I think that, whatever the gravity of the situation, they will at some point have what we all, the military, have, our country [o compromisso de] surpbades the pbadions.

P. Do you think that there should be a change of regime? And how do you think that should be done?

R. What is happening is that Venezuela must start from scratch. The process that took place destroyed the economy, divided the country's population, a country with enormous potential because of its natural wealth and geographical position, and a small population. So, he has all the capabilities and this process ended up overthrowing the Venezuelan economy. And when the economy goes bad, the country goes bad. And it is obvious that the way in which things have been conducted, the way in which the instruments of democracy have been used, in which a group occupies power for so long, is not good. I firmly believe that one of the basic conditions for a country to progress and for a democracy to be strong is to change the powers. And they are in power since 1999, they are 20 years of the same group in power. This is not good.

P . Should this change take place through elections?

R . Yes, this change will occur throughout the electoral process. The movement that I think needs to be resolved in Venezuela is that Maduro and his group leave the country.

P. How long?

R . I do not know, you can not put time in, but I think you have to leave. They leave the country and this boy, who is now President of the National Assembly (Juan Guaidó), is calling for new elections in three or six months, at a time when things will be repaired and Venezuela will resume because the economy must be rebuilt in the country. . People must learn to know each other, to stop hating each other and to restore the unity of the country.

P. Regarding Venezuela, the evolution of Brazil's foreign policy is remarkable. Also compared to the United States. What does the Bolsonaro government hope to achieve with this radical change, the new alliance being forged with the United States and Israel?

R. I do not think there is an alliance, I think our government has a very clear idea of ​​the values ​​that characterize American democracy. There is an identity with these values. This is essential, because the last governments were not very clear about it. I do not see him today as a blind alliance of Brazil with the United States, I see it as an approximation of values ​​that, in my opinion, are important for America as a whole. America has proposed the ideas of the French Revolution, ideas of the Enlightenment. America was a land of freedom, America as a whole.

P. Right to vote, freedoms, separation of powers.

R. Yes, that's right.

P. Speaking of that. In September 2018, you stated, according to Folha de S. Paulo that Brazil needed a new constitution, which was not to be drafted by the elected representatives of the people, who preferred that it be drafted by a Council of Notables. Do you still have this opinion?

R . Yes, my personal opinion is that our constitution is very big. I am the defender of a minor constitution that only concerns the values ​​of democracy and Brazil as a country. But the text can be written either by the Congress itself, or by a Constituent Assembly elected in its place, or by a group of people who have a lot of knowledge to write and submit it to a congressional vote. or the population.

P. And that it be voted?

R. Yes, you must vote.

P. But that it should be voted a posteriori, that members do not participate in its drafting.

R. What happened to our constitution that we have today? It was done by the deputies, who were elected to represent the people and, at the same time, to be voters. They played two roles. And what happened? The different pressure groups have put their little things into our constitution, so we have this constitution for so long. You imagine that in 30 years you have a hundred amendments. The United States Constitution is over 200 years old and 27 amendments.

P. Are the armed forces committed to democracy in Brazil?

R . there is no doubt. If there is a democratic institution in Brazil, it is the armed forces because of their own characteristics. It is the armed forces that do not constitute a special group, the people who compose them come from all layers of all social clbades. I think that even most of them come from the lower middle clbad, they are people who know the country very well and who have a very firm ideal that democracy is the best thing for the country to do.

P. Some national and international observers consider him more moderate than the president. What do you think? Is it more moderate?

R. I do not think it's a question of moderation. I think the president and I have had different trajectories in our lives. The president has been a politician for 30 years. I have been a soldier all my life. So with that, we have slightly different views on how we behave, but there is an identity of thought between the two. And of course, there is a way to express yourself.

P. Is this natural?

R. I think it's natural.

P. How to treat the press …

R. That's my natural way of dealing. The president has his. I think we complement each other.

P. You entered the army during the military dictatorship. How do you evaluate this period from 1964 to 1985?

R. I am a critic to call this period dictatorship. I am a very strong critic because to call a dictatorship a period that changes every four years, the president is a very different dictatorship. I usually say that it was an authoritarian period, a government with an exception instrument, the institutional act number five. If you look, it was an instrument that lasted from 1968 to 1979. In the last six years of the period, there was no instrument of exception between the hands of the president [João] Figueiredo. It can not be called a dictatorial period. And in the initial period, President Castelo Branco, until the death of President Costa e Silva, there was no such instrument. This story, in the future, will be studied better. During this period, the country has experienced great economic progress. Brazil has been postponed. We were a rural economy, a precarious industry, and in ten years we moved to an industrialized country. At the same time, there was a confrontation of the Cold War that existed at that time. The Marxist and Leninist groups that existed in Brazil declared that they were facing dictatorship, but were actually fighting to impose another dictatorship, the dictatorship of the communist system. It was a very small war for a country of 90 million inhabitants [na época]. On both sides, adding, just over 400 people died. Today, in Brazil, they kill 60,000 people a year and no one speaks about it.

P. But people could not vote. Was not it a dictatorship?

R. People did not vote for the president, but they elected their representatives to Congress. In the elections of the year 74, the opposition, the BMD, won the elections. What dictatorship is it? Later, in the era of President Figueiredo, when state governors were re-elected, most states fell into the hands of the opposition.

P. Can one admire at the same time the democracy of the United States and say that this period of Brazil was good?

R. The period has had its mistakes, as everything in life. But it was a different time, a different generation. We must ask from the beginning of the Republic in Brazil. My point of view, as a person who has somewhat studied history, is that 1964 was the end point of military interventions in Brazil. It was the last intervention. The transition from the sixty-sixth to the present was the only peaceful, or no coup d'etat, of our republican history. The Republic began in 1889, there was a revolution in 1930, in 1945, Getulio [Vargas] suffered a new coup d'etat, then there was the change by the takeover by the government. ;army. to civilians. It was therefore a self-extinguishing diet.

P. And what were these errors?

R. I think that nationalization was excessive in the era of President Geisel [Ernesto] when a very large number of state enterprises were created. We have ceased to have a more liberal economic system, as it had been since President Castelo Branco, at a time of state intervention in the economy that showed us later that it was not the best way to run the country.

P. And torture?

R. Torture is a war affair. In war, the first victim is always the truth. There are many people who say that she was tortured and was not tortured. And others who were and do not speak at all.

P. He does not deny that there was.

R. What happened, yes. But it was war. War is war. And there were two sides. Nobody talks about the military police lieutenant killed by kicking his head for Lamarca and his group. Nobody talks about it. You have to put both sides of his story.

P. At the council of ministers sit several military and ex-military [são sete]. What is the role of the army in a civilian government?

R. They are like civilians. They are ministers and act as civilians. Obviously, they bring their luggage, all their knowledge acquired throughout the life of the armed forces. But there is a somewhat distorted view. General [Augusto] Helen, head of the Office of Institutional Security, has always been in a military post. Who are the different? General Santos Cruz, Secretary of the Government, Admiral Bento [Albuquerque] at the Ministry of Mines and Energy, Mr. Tarcisio [Freitas, da Infraestrutura] was a soldier, left the army there is long time. The Wagner [Rosário, da Controladoria Geral da União] also. He left as a captain. They are not people who have dedicated their lives to the army. I consider them different. They were already civilians and had been in this situation for some time.

P. Do you believe that the army should participate in pension reform?

R. Yes, and they will be.

P. But at this first moment?

R. There is confusion because there is no military welfare system in the Bismarckian system, as we know it. These are different diets. What is happening is that changes in the military can be made through a normal bill. It is different from the constitutional amendment to make to the general scheme. The point of view of the military group is this: since something has more difficulty, such as a constitutional amendment, it must move forward. When it is approved in the first round, the bill enters the army, so that the two arrive together at the end.

P. Because in practice, this bill is simpler to approve.

R. Yes, simpler. The concern of the army is therefore to adopt the military bill and the constitutional amendment, is not it. Then they remain alone in this situation. It's the vision that they have and I agree with them.

P. And will there be a minimum age for the military?

R. No, for the army, this is not the case. There will be an increase in the length of stay in active duty.

P. I ask why, for us, civilians, it seems strange to see a person aged 47 to 48 retire.

R. These are different situations, because the military career also imposes certain types of difficulties on the life of the person, has a workload that everyone must fulfill. But I am not a supporter of retirement at 47 or 48, because today, a man or a woman of this age still has a lot to do. Even in the physical part. I believe that, at first, it will progress to 35 years of active service and perhaps even in the near future. The more we live, the more we live.

P. What has not been done in three years, two similar disasters like Brumadinho and Mariana? In the case of Brumadinho with much greater human damage because there are now 110 dead.

R. It will be over 300. What is happening is that we are very good at legislation, but we are very bad at monitoring. You have to check, that's all. There is not much to discuss. The law exists, so you must enforce it. At last Tuesday's cabinet meeting, I quoted a quote from General Marshall [George] who was the chief of staff of the US Army during World War II. He said that for every dollar of professional soldier's pay, ten cents corresponded to the orders given. And ninety cents, at the inspection. In Brazil that's all.

P. How do you view the critics of Olavo de Carvalho against the military who work in the Bolsonaro government?

R. I do not see them (laughs).

P. But he is considered the guru of President Bolsonaro.

R. No Olavo de Carvalho is not … leave it. Where is he in Pennsylvania that he lives?

P. I do not know for sure, I know it's in the United States.

R. C is in the United States, enjoy the winter.

P. The government program does not include proposals for minorities such as women, blacks, indigenous peoples, the LGBT community. Do you believe that these groups do not need specific policies?

R. I think it's necessary to have specific policies to get people out of poverty. There are poor whites, poor blacks, poor Indians. So if you have policies to lift people out of poverty, give them jobs, give them education, access to health and better living conditions. Have a safe home, with water, with everything you need, whatever the color of the person. There is a lot of this problem of blacks, there are whites and blacks in this situation. If you go to any favela of our big cities, you will see people of all kinds. Obviously, in the southeast and northeast, there are more blacks. But the poor of the south are white. We have to take people out of poverty.

P. Once out of poverty, do you understand that equality is guaranteed?

R. In my opinion, you have to put everyone together on the starting line. And to put them together, you give education, health and safety. From there, you know that all people are distinct. Some will run the whole marathon and others will stay on the way because that is human nature. The big role of the government is that everyone starts the same way. And not some who will start because others are left behind because they have access to nothing.

P. The starting point in several countries for nearly fifty years is almost equal to that of men. We all received the same education as our brothers, our friends, and our husbands, but we did not achieve the same goal. We represent more than half of the population and we are underrepresented in this government, for example. Why do not we run the marathon well or why does not the system help?

R. Women are different in each country. There is a lot of talk here about the political representation of women. Look at Parliament. A law obliges the political party to have three women candidates for ten men. It is difficult. Where are the women who want to participate in politics? There are many who do not want to. It's complicated. Brazilian women have other interests. There are groups in which you find people who are looking for politics, but the vast majority are not. This is a progress that the country will have to live. I believe that today the strength of women in Brazil is very broad. Since a large number of women run their own homes alone, a large number of women occupy important positions in private enterprises, in public enterprises. So, I think it's a process. And I have all the peace of mind to say it because my mother was a woman born in the 1920s and a person who was working was a school principal. She was a person ahead of her time. I learned this at home

P. Why do you get so many diplomats? In a month, there were almost ten

R. I think I charm them (laughs). I believe that they come here to make courtesy visits, present their ideas about the exchanges we can have and keep what exists. These are things of courtesy.

P. His friend and former commander, General Paulo Assis, responsible for his membership in the PRTB, told the Intercept website that he had seen it occupy the presidency before 2022 in a more longer than the one he had just occupied recently. What did you feel knowing this?

R. One thing that is spoken in Venezuela … General Paulo Assis, when he said that, smoked a " lumpia " [um termo coloquial para dizer que “fumou maconha”]. (Laughter) When I arrived at the PRTB, I informed Levy party chairman [Fidelix] that I entered the party by a single situation. If Bolsonaro needed us, as vice president, we would accompany him. Only this, nothing more.

P. Do not you pretend to become president?

R. I never had it. My claim was that I had managed to be president of the military club [no Rio de Janeiro]. I would be quiet on the beach, no problem.

P. When did you tell who you thought?

R. We are the party. Me and the PRTB